Anyone seriously considering the R2.8? (Cummins)

only on days when i have nothing else to do and think about when I might have $9k to waste - when the math is done and it is one of 2 scenarios - wither my powertrain is done and needs overhaul or I just want to blow some she money - - so if my engine is done for and I need newer - the cost diff between repairs, new gas vs new diesel (2.8) labor and xtra parts being equal - the mpg savings is about 5-8 per gallon - so when looking at diesels - that means I would have to drive 62K miles to break even - and 3 yrs if my daily driver - maybe I say yes - if not a daily driver and just weekends - that break even goes to 8-10 yrs -
but this is just me - spreadsheet says no - but that really isn't why i have a jeep is it - living true to "Just Empty Every Pocket".....I started my 2.8 acct 1 yr ago and am 1K deep - so 7k more then my baby will get a Diesel - just bc I have the money to burn and the long 2 weekends to pull and stab - and my 6 is still humming so I will do it just bc I want to - maybe - I am on the fence ........don't need it but maybe just maybe they will go on sale

I like my 2.8, but imo the spreadsheet only works if you compare it to a new vehicle and you don't plan to sell either. Also you have to really like what you've currently got. I'm getting double what my 4.0 was getting MPG wise, but gas is so cheap. Torque is night and day though. I find myself towing a lot more in my TJ, though that may be a bad thing as my rear end just sprung a leak right after towing more than the Jeep is rated for.

Don't forget, even if you fabricate everything from free material, you'll run into stuff that you'll need to fix. Just make sure your budget is ready once you have the motor and you're starting to install it. Jeeps are expensive, continuous projects. For me there's just nothing much I want that's new/used within my budget that doesn't need work to fit my needs/wants, so I build from something that's used that's closer to my budget. I screw up constantly and hopefully I'll eventually learn, which is much of the fun/heartache.

The swap I did wasn't extremely difficult, but to get it done in a timely manner I had to be very focused on the project and worked long hours and even when I was away, I was working on it in my head. That's the other aspect if you plan to do it yourself and depending on your skill level, it may be much easier or harder so you'll have to make up for it in some other way. I had to overcome my shortcomings, by buying a kit and spending long hours learning and working. I love the end product, but to each his own. If I have a problem I can't just go yell at anyone but myself, there's something scary and rewarding about that.
 
I actually don't roll coal on Prius drivers, I just like to remind them that my engines are efficient than their engine. Most efficiency considerations are based on work but yeah I can't their MPG with the current drivetrain, drag profile, etc. There's been some R2.8s in small cars with EGR deletes and tuned accordingly that get 40s MPG. I'm a Prius owner though as well, mainly the girl friend's car though as she drives 100 miles a day to work. I've got a really stubby exhaust still so if I do roll a bit of coal it certainly gets me. This cold bit we had really took some time to warm up so it wouldn't stink when I got on the throttle.

Yes there's EFI live and tunes for the R2.8. From what I've heard it's not going to be great for high HP not even much over 200 hp. No idea what's failing at that point but I know my trans wouldn't be long for this world with roughly 400 ft lbs.

There's an ISF 3.8 made by Cummins that I've heard has some flaws in materials of a few components, but I think it's supposed to be built a bit tougher in some aspects for those wanting 250-350 HP maybe but I've really got no idea. I think there was some repower teasing for a bit.

I just feel like the 2.8 is pretty much the right ft lbs and physical size for a TJ. And not just from Cummins but any modern or tuned diesel around that size is suited extremely well on paper for our Jeeps.
 
With the supercharger, only time will be able to tell. However, mines been problem free for years now. I honestly don’t think that there is an issue with reliability and a supercharger, as long as you run low boost. With the amount of power I gained on my 4.0 with only 6 psi, there’s no way I’ll ever need to swap a bigger engine in now. All that for $2500 too!

IMHO, a supercharger is a great solution. Gobs of power, easy to bolt on, and a low cost compared to engine swaps. It really is a huge difference, night and day. It’s almost like I have two 4.0s under the hood now.
Hello, what supercharger specifically are you running on your 4.0l? I considered that option too, but i heard from others the fuel economy is terrible. Cleanest setup i found was the spindex setup with an additional injector and piggyback programmer, but it was close to $4000? Any input is greatly appreciated. Rick
 
Hello, what supercharger specifically are you running on your 4.0l? I considered that option too, but i heard from others the fuel economy is terrible. Cleanest setup i found was the spindex setup with an additional injector and piggyback programmer, but it was close to $4000? Any input is greatly appreciated. Rick

https://magnumpowers.com/product/ornare-et/
That is the best supercharger out there for the 4.0. Fuel economy will indeed suck though and you will need an HPTuners MPVI2 to tune it (not a piggyback tuner).
 
Nope. Modern diesels are nothing like their old predecessors. The new diesels have so many electronics and emissions, that in my opinion, it defeats the whole puprose of owning a diesel. I would much rather spend the money on a nice LS swap, where parts come by the plenty and for cheaper too.

After riding in a diesel TJ with the top off, I would also never do a diesel swap just based on that. It’s so loud you can’t even hear yourself think. Just sitting at a stop light was mind numbing.
Old thread I know, but you're saying exactly the same thing I've been saying for years - with the caveat that they are also engineering out the diesel sound, which I personally like.
 
I love the idea of a nice small and punchy diesel. The gains do not justify the investment to get this thing going thus far. I VW TDI punched out to 2.2 may be a better choice and TONS of tuning options. My old '03 would get close to 700 miles per gas tank (14.5 gal tank) on average before I did the EGR delete and upgraded the nozzles and tuning. Great torque curve that matches the original 4.0 as well. I've even looked at the Rover diesels. In time I am sure we will see a nice conversion that will yield the torque we want and tuning ability we want. I have never been a fan of the superchargers mostly because of the torque robbing aspect, and if the belt brakes, or comes off you're done.
 
  • Like
Reactions: BugoutJeep
Old thread I know, but you're saying exactly the same thing I've been saying for years - with the caveat that they are also engineering out the diesel sound, which I personally like.

Yeah, I don’t think I would own a modern diesel. They are so loaded with emissions and other bullshit that they aren’t the simplistic, easy to work on engines of the past. In fact, the new ones are arguably more complicated than their gasoline counterparts.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Zorba
Old thread I know, but you're saying exactly the same thing I've been saying for years - with the caveat that they are also engineering out the diesel sound, which I personally like.
I used to LOVE!!!! The look of disbelief on "racer car" drivers after I let them catch up to me light to light with the diesel. They heard the diesel motor in the then "GTI looking golf "and laughed, until I would get a decent ten car space between my Golf and their car without a coal trail behind me. Yeah it sounds like a school bus, Suck it!
 
Yeah, I don’t think I would own a modern diesel. They are so loaded with emissions and other bullshit that they aren’t the simplistic, easy to work on engines of the past. In fact, the new ones are arguably more complicated than their gasoline counterparts.
For sure. If you live in a state that exempts Diesel emissions, you could get away with a lot, and still be super efficient. Simpler, quieter even and way more enjoyable
 
  • Like
Reactions: Chris
https://magnumpowers.com/product/ornare-et/
That is the best supercharger out there for the 4.0. Fuel economy will indeed suck though and you will need an HPTuners MPVI2 to tune it (not a piggyback tuner).
Wait i thought you said fuel economy didnt go down and you did the supercharger all for around $2500?? The setup ive seen and heard works really well is the Sprintex 257A1005 SPRI Supercharger System with DiabloSport Tuner
 
For sure. If you live in a state that exempts Diesel emissions, you could get away with a lot, and still be super efficient. Simpler, quieter even and way more enjoyable
The R2.8 still maintains some of the diesel sound, but only a very few people can tell what a diesel even sounds like anyway. Only 2 or 3 people have noticed it's a diesel. Most likely just think it's just another tired old Jeep engine on it's last breathes. The R2.8 emissions or lack there of, really gives it a leg up IMO to the new offerings we see from OEMs. I think the new small diesels are probably built for higher HP than the 2.8L. Even in countries without emissions requirements, it's putting out 160hp, so it's designed for that. For a TJ or JK that 300+ ft lbs is perfectly utilitarian, which can't be said for most of the OEM offerings.

I do like modern diesels and early 2000s they are very similar tech used today, without the emissions, but the emissions, lets you get away with some crazy performance too and meet EPA requirements. And the new tech is great for keeping the coal rolling under control and unless you're racing it's something I never want coming from any of my diesels. My old tractors don't do it (like 1970s era) my 2003 Dodge 2500 does give a puff if I go from no throttle to heavy throttle, but it's barely even noticeable.

I like the R2.8 over some other diesels, because it's got more displacement than some of the other small diesels out there, it's modern, which is good and bad, but IMO a little on the better side. I've heard from some people that the R2.8 isn't built as strong as many diesels out there and with a bit tougher access to aftermarket components, I would be hesitant (if even possible) to certainly go over 200 hp/400 ft lbs without doing bottom end work. After looking at the dynos, it wouldn't help me how I like to drive, because the big power and torque numbers are really far up the RPM scale, which is where I prefer to not drive. Did I mention I'd kill my 280k mi AX-15 too?

On the displacement stuff, I like the 2.8 over the TDIs (though I love these engines), even with the quick responding turbo, you still find yourself without the turbo occasionally. In trucks and tractors, those larger engines are really nice in that they've really got some balls even without the turbo and on the older stuff the turbo kicking in isn't as much contrast in power as I've noticed with a lot of smaller displacement diesels. Your smaller diesels just don't quite have it until the turbo kicks in and it's night and day. And you're not really getting an economy loss to the added displacement in a diesel. If you're accelerating up to speed with more weight, then yeah you're using more fuel to do more work, but the rest of the time it's mostly using just as much fuel as needed to get the work done that is required to keep you moving and to meet EPA regs.

One issue I may have, but just don't know the designs, is that I think some modern diesels are actually lowering their efficiency some inherently, by going with like smallish compression ratios, since EGR and some other emissions because high efficiency combustion leads to NOx and SOx. I have also read that many modern diesels, have increased some valve train forces for smoother power bands and anytime you must overcome more force, you're doing more work. I am ignorant of that part of the design too, but I do know mid 20s and very likely 30s MPG wouldn't be difficult in a Jeep if that was your only goal, which is not thought of nor designed to be very economical with your fuel.

Personally, getting low 20s mpg and having all the bells and whistles for off-roading and not even thinking of hyper-miling is amazing. But it isn't going to save you money unless, you really like a TJ type vehicle and you're fed up with the powerplant and feeding it and messing with fuel cans and looking at buying like a fully loaded JLU or Gladiator.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Ephry73
I know it’s been awhile since anyone posted here. Like most of us that like to do long trips or just love putting miles on my TJ I dream of the 2.8 for the 700 mile tanks. However my 4.0 only has 150. I’ve owned it since 50k and it just got a nice refresh. It ran like a top before I refreshed it, So I’m sure I have another 10-15 years before I have ring issues. Which at this point with how fast electrical vehicle technology is progressing makes it seem like in 15 years an electric conversion that would blow our minds today will likely be available. I’m looking at what poison sypder is doing for retrofitting jls to be elec with solid axles and drivetrains and still getting close to 300 miles a charge. Granted that is 2 big batteries. And no rear seat. Not that that matters to me. I guess I’m just curious what your guys thoughts on diesel vs elec 10 or so years from now. I say this esp as elec America has been growing. What do you guys think will there be a solar elec charging station at rubicon springs one day? I’m also curious if any of you guys saw those elec driveshafts that were at sema around 2011-12. They were bolt on and once the vehicle was up to speed they sent a signal to a small magnet that eased engine load and could produce higher and extra torque in certain situations. Just kinda curious and seeing to learn what I can before I need to pull the trigger on a engine swap in a decade or so. Better to get started now. Haha. Thanks
 
  • Like
Reactions: BugoutJeep
I like the set-up with the burro🐴 up front and the reigns running through the windshield frame! That's oldschool. 👍
 
I know it’s been awhile since anyone posted here. Like most of us that like to do long trips or just love putting miles on my TJ I dream of the 2.8 for the 700 mile tanks. However my 4.0 only has 150. I’ve owned it since 50k and it just got a nice refresh. It ran like a top before I refreshed it, So I’m sure I have another 10-15 years before I have ring issues. Which at this point with how fast electrical vehicle technology is progressing makes it seem like in 15 years an electric conversion that would blow our minds today will likely be available. I’m looking at what poison sypder is doing for retrofitting jls to be elec with solid axles and drivetrains and still getting close to 300 miles a charge. Granted that is 2 big batteries. And no rear seat. Not that that matters to me. I guess I’m just curious what your guys thoughts on diesel vs elec 10 or so years from now. I say this esp as elec America has been growing. What do you guys think will there be a solar elec charging station at rubicon springs one day? I’m also curious if any of you guys saw those elec driveshafts that were at sema around 2011-12. They were bolt on and once the vehicle was up to speed they sent a signal to a small magnet that eased engine load and could produce higher and extra torque in certain situations. Just kinda curious and seeing to learn what I can before I need to pull the trigger on a engine swap in a decade or so. Better to get started now. Haha. Thanks
The amount of infrastructure or the generator necessary or solar to recharge you in the field, probably won't be figured out for decades.

Diesel for off-road will still be king unless you trailer your rig. Modern batteries have trouble flexing too so that's something to worry about for repeated use and when something cracks you may see a fire you can't think of stopping. Diesel so far is probably the least likely to ignite, unless the EPA tinkers with it.

I love the idea of a diesel/hybrid system though. Or just a small ev bike you can take with your Jeep or truck once you get to camp.

Another problem we're going to see with higher ev is that charging is likely going to be revolutionized and this may lead to a lot of poor and bad infrastructure until the kinks are worked out which is more of a problem when you force something rather than ease into it. I love the idea of this ev stuff but it's an infancy and there's issues at every level and it probably doesn't need to be more than maybe 20% of vehicles on the road by a couple decades.
 
The amount of infrastructure or the generator necessary or solar to recharge you in the field, probably won't be figured out for decades.

Diesel for off-road will still be king unless you trailer your rig. Modern batteries have trouble flexing too so that's something to worry about for repeated use and when something cracks you may see a fire you can't think of stopping. Diesel so far is probably the least likely to ignite, unless the EPA tinkers with it.

I love the idea of a diesel/hybrid system though. Or just a small ev bike you can take with your Jeep or truck once you get to camp.

Another problem we're going to see with higher ev is that charging is likely going to be revolutionized and this may lead to a lot of poor and bad infrastructure until the kinks are worked out which is more of a problem when you force something rather than ease into it. I love the idea of this ev stuff but it's an infancy and there's issues at every level and it probably doesn't need to be more than maybe 20% of vehicles on the road by a couple decades.
Thanks, that pretty much confirms my beliefs. I did not know about the problem with modern batteries flexing and failing. Although that’s a very interesting problem to have. I feel like your confirming my bias towards patience also. Eventually my goal with my Jeep would be a 2000 mile range. I know that’s ludacrious but the is America and I can dream about whatever I want. Haha. I really would like a 3000 mile range. But I know that’s crazy.

I did know how far “green” energy is from being green. But 10 years is a long time also. And with the star power of rubicon springs I wouldn’t put it past even a non green charging station there. Just for he photo op.

I think the other real issue with batteries is service life. How long before they get to a point they last 20 plus years without diminished capcity or charge ability. The hybrid stuff is real neat. I also like the work being done with magnets in wheels. I think on road there could be possibilities with that tech. But like the elec torque driveshafts they have disappeared into the depths of gm. My understanding of the idea behind electrify America was that they are trying to get the “standards” set up now.

I am a dirtbiker already and that is absolutely my solution to camping with the jeep. It’s perfect. I have seen the new ktm etc elec trail bikes. Real neat but again range limited. But at least with the jeep you could recharge.

Thanks so much, I was just curious what other Jeepers were watching around this. Any suggestions for hybrid diesels you have your eye on?
 
  • Like
Reactions: BugoutJeep
Thanks, that pretty much confirms my beliefs. I did not know about the problem with modern batteries flexing and failing. Although that’s a very interesting problem to have. I feel like your confirming my bias towards patience also. Eventually my goal with my Jeep would be a 2000 mile range. I know that’s ludacrious but the is America and I can dream about whatever I want. Haha. I really would like a 3000 mile range. But I know that’s crazy.

I did know how far “green” energy is from being green. But 10 years is a long time also. And with the star power of rubicon springs I wouldn’t put it past even a non green charging station there. Just for he photo op.

I think the other real issue with batteries is service life. How long before they get to a point they last 20 plus years without diminished capcity or charge ability. The hybrid stuff is real neat. I also like the work being done with magnets in wheels. I think on road there could be possibilities with that tech. But like the elec torque driveshafts they have disappeared into the depths of gm. My understanding of the idea behind electrify America was that they are trying to get the “standards” set up now.

I am a dirtbiker already and that is absolutely my solution to camping with the jeep. It’s perfect. I have seen the new ktm etc elec trail bikes. Real neat but again range limited. But at least with the jeep you could recharge.

Thanks so much, I was just curious what other Jeepers were watching around this. Any suggestions for hybrid diesels you have your eye on?
As far as flexing and battery problems, I would like to see how the UTVs that are electric work out first. I would totally by an electric UTV in a handful of years for the family farm once I have a chance to read about the tech and can setup my own infrastructure for charging from either fast charging from either a diesel PTO driven generator or slowly with solar. I've fussed with too many vehicles that are dead after a few months of having to be elsewhere and between the batteries, which I now solar charger or the bad gas or some similar issue, I'd prefer it to be similar to my power tools, which I said would never replace my pneumatic tools.

Right now most EVs I see are meant for well maintained roads unless they're industrial, so I'm not sure how the off-road vibrations will play out in frame wear.

Those truck EVs are extremely heavy right now too from my understanding and that sucks to pull out from off road situations.

Lots of hurdles have lots of answers. But with so many unknowns, standards built before tech, don't seem destined for success. In the next 10 years though I'd rather research before committing to that and I think the hardest thing to pull off will be a Jeep you can drive hours on the highway and then hit remote trails and get back.
 
If you want to know anything about the defender side of this swap, this is a friend of mine who is the foremost installer of this motor (stateside) in defenders. He's done several all with a high level of success, power, drivability and looking factory.
https://nas-row.com/index.php?threads/cummins-repower-isf-2-8-for-defenders.573/https://www.defendersource.com/threads/cummins-r2-8-into-a-defender.158618/#post-1919753222https://nas-row.com/index.php?threads/r2-8-buildout-shopping-list.3723/