Break-over and departure angles—I'm an odd duck

[Irun]

Here's the dilemma:

The crew I normally wheel with all run SWB vehicles. Specifically, TJs and first generation Broncos. The majority of them run 35" tires, with some on 37". This means that their 92"- 93" wheelbase gives them a significant break-over and departure angle advantage over my LJ, with 35" tires and a 104" wheelbase. To help with the break-over, I have a Savvy UA to go in place of the current UCF extra clearance skid. Also, I picked up a set of GenRight body mounts that will get installed when I do the skid.

For the departure angle, the only thing I can do at this point is pull in the rear bumper, using something like a Motobilt Rock Crawler, or a GenRight bumper plate. There's always the option of a small stretch, but that has it own set of issues, and just makes the break-over problem worse.

I am contemplating a set of Currie Extreme 60s and going to 37" tires. However, after reading through much of @toximus build thread, this is $30K+ rabbit hole. At that price, I could just find a buggy or buy a TJ and build that on 35s. Unfortunately, I've grown fond of the LJ platform and don't see myself budging on that.

Sorry for the long winded post, but I'm struggling with how to proceed. Sigh!

 

[Chris]

Funny you mention this. I was wheeling with @starkey480 a few weekends ago, and during all that wheeling the one thing that became very obvious to me is that my SWB TJ had a great advantage in that situation over an Unlimited.

The Unlimited has much better road manners due to the longer wheelbase, and it has the longer driveshaft which is also a very nice thing to have. However, I am now 100% convinced that I am glad I did not buy an Unlimited, because if I did, I am absolutely certain that I would want to put 37s on it to makeup for the break-over angle not being as good as the TJ.

Of course just like you, I've watched @toximus and his build thread, and I've come to the conclusion that I would do it much like he did with RockJock 60 axles, coilovers, etc. Of course that would end up costing me probably 60k plus very easily.

So in the end, I'm glad I don't have that temptation, because I think everyone knows I'm crazy enough to do it.

Sometimes I tell myself I should have bought an Unlimited, but these are the times I tell myself I'm glad I didn't

I'll live with the shorter wheelbase, as out here where I am in the desert it's been a real blessing so far.

 

[Irun]

I'll live with the shorter wheelbase, as out here where I am in the desert it's been a real blessing so far.

I'm definitely struggling with this one. On the plus side, whenever we come to a long steep hill climb, I generally walk up it, with very little drama. When I watch them climb, I'm happy with my LWB, and glad I'm not a passenger riding along with them. As with everything, it's a mixed bag. Sometimes I'm at an advantage, sometimes they are. Maybe I just need to be content with that!

 

[mrblaine]

Here's the dilemma:

The crew I normally wheel with all run SWB vehicles. Specifically, TJs and first generation Broncos. The majority of them run 35" tires, with some on 37". This means that their 92"- 93" wheelbase gives them a significant break-over and departure angle advantage over my LJ, with 35" tires and a 104" wheelbase. To help with the break-over, I have a Savvy UA to go in place of the current UCF extra clearance skid. Also, I picked up a set of GenRight body mounts that will get installed when I do the skid.

For the departure angle, the only thing I can do at this point is pull in the rear bumper, using something like a Motobilt Rock Crawler, or a GenRight bumper plate. There's always the option of a small stretch, but that has it own set of issues, and just makes the break-over problem worse.

I am contemplating a set of Currie Extreme 60s and going to 37" tires. However, after reading through much of @toximus build thread, this is $30K+ rabbit hole. At that price, I could just find a buggy or buy a TJ and build that on 35s. Unfortunately, I've grown fond of the LJ platform and don't see myself budging on that.

Sorry for the long winded post, but I'm struggling with how to proceed. Sigh!

You are starting to figure out the how and why of my wheelbase, tire size, and belly height balance rules of thumb we use.

All these fucks want to stretch their rigs for 35's and we know that 104 is just too much wheelbase if you wheel where it matters unless you want to build it stupid tall.

Avoid the Genright plate, it sucks since it is open on the bottom. If you want to go that route, look at the one from Poison Spyder or SWAG. No experience with the MB so do your comparisons.

An Unlimited in JV really needs 37's. 35's make for a longer day but not the worst day.

As for TJ versus TJ Unlimited, I challenge anyone who thinks one is better than the other to give me the specs for their perfect rig and very few will be duplicates depending on region. Build for what you do and don't generalize that for everyone because it won't work.

My rules work very well for where we wheel.

If you want to fix the tank problem, I have a way to do it. You won't like it if you value ALL of your cargo space.

 

[mrblaine]

I'm definitely struggling with this one. On the plus side, whenever we come to a long steep hill climb, I generally walk up it, with very little drama. When I watch them climb, I'm happy with my LWB, and glad I'm not a passenger riding along with them. As with everything, it's a mixed bag. Sometimes I'm at an advantage, sometimes they are. Maybe I just need to be content with that!

Fine tune all the little things and you're on the right track. Raised body mounts, raised gas tank skid, low profile rear bumper and then see what needs work after that. As you've noted, you kick their ass on some stuff.

That's also the thing that everyone misses about JV. Yeah, my 40" tires look good but they add width that forces me to take stupid lines to get between stuff that guys on 35's never even scrub sidewalls on and just sneak right through. The difficulty level is very close because of the lines we have to take.

 

[Chris]

I'm definitely struggling with this one. On the plus side, whenever we come to a long steep hill climb, I generally walk up it, with very little drama.

Yep, I guess that's where the mid-arm comes in handy on the shorter wheelbase models.

I think that both the SWB model and the Unlimited model has their own advantages. I just know if I owned an Unlimited, I'd be spending twice as much to run 37s, that's for sure.

 

[Irun]

Yep, I guess that's where the mid-arm comes in handy on the shorter wheelbase models.

I think that both the SWB model and the Unlimited model has their own advantages. I just know if I owned an Unlimited, I'd be spending twice as much to run 37s, that's for sure.

I'm not convinced I need to go to 37s. Like @mrblaine said, I'm now tuning all the little things that will make a difference.

Fine tune all the little things and you're on the right track. Raised body mounts, raised gas tank skid, low profile rear bumper and then see what needs work after that. As you've noted, you kick their ass on some stuff.

That's also the thing that everyone misses about JV. Yeah, my 40" tires look good but they add width that forces me to take stupid lines to get between stuff that guys on 35's never even scrub sidewalls on and just sneak right through. The difficulty level is very close because of the lines we have to take.

Axle width is definitely something on my mind. I'm on the second rear and have broken u joints and the yoke a couple times. At some point I'm going to need to move up from the Rubicon 44s under the Jeep now. I've looked at lots of options, including 9", but it's hard to argue with the 60. My challenge here is the width. Going to a 64.5" wide axle will cause me all kinds of grief, given a significant amount of time is spent in tight woods.

Also, I've come to realize that rocks are rocks, regardless of where you are. I'm still going to have the same break-over and departure angle issues, regardless of whether I'm in JV or climbing over rocks in the mountains of PA. Frankly, time is my enemy and I'm at a point where I'd like to just send you my Jeep, so you can fix some of my ignorant modifications. Unfortunately, shipping prices are stupid high now, so I'm mulling over what to do here.

As always, thanks for taking the time to share your knowledge, it does help many of us see things differently!

 

[jjvw]

Small, high and tight bumpers made a tremendous difference on mine. So did raising the rear and eliminating the body lift pucks.

 

[Irun]

Small, high and tight bumpers made a tremendous difference on mine. So did raising the rear and eliminating the body lift pucks.

That's exactly what I'm thinking. I've addressed the front bumper already, and am happy there. Next up is to go after the body mounts, Savvy UA, and rear bumper next!

 

[mrblaine]

I'm not convinced I need to go to 37s. Like @mrblaine said, I'm now tuning all the little things that will make a difference.

Axle width is definitely something on my mind. I'm on the second rear and have broken u joints and the yoke a couple times. At some point I'm going to need to move up from the Rubicon 44s under the Jeep now. I've looked at lots of options, including 9", but it's hard to argue with the 60. My challenge here is the width. Going to a 64.5" wide axle will cause me all kinds of grief, given a significant amount of time is spent in tight woods.

Also, I've come to realize that rocks are rocks, regardless of where you are. I'm still going to have the same break-over and departure angle issues, regardless of whether I'm in JV or climbing over rocks in the mountains of PA. Frankly, time is my enemy and I'm at a point where I'd like to just send you my Jeep, so you can fix some of my ignorant modifications. Unfortunately, shipping prices are stupid high now, so I'm mulling over what to do here.

As always, thanks for taking the time to share your knowledge, it does help many of us see things differently!

Axles are always going to be a challenge simply due to how many have limited experience with one or two styles and then the internet gets involved and wants you to buy a junkyard piece of shit and start puking metal all over it. Then the ground clearance this and bullshit that starts.

At the end of the day, look at what you are replacing and consider that a wash for pricing. JY axle needs a locker? Yep, add that to the cost and factor that into the custom price. Needs gears? Same thing again. Gonna need some stronger or new axles so you can run 35 spline? How about a bracket kit and brakes? Don't think just because something has OEM brakes on it that you can readily make that work, some of the bigger calipers will require more brake power than the TJ booster can muster.

I've seen lots of folks tell others to get some Super Duty crap because they can be had cheap. That is the least of your expense by the time you can get it all under there and get it working. At the end, the honest ones will tell you it would have been about the same cost and far easier to order up a Currie RJ or similar and do not overlook the value of a High Pinion in the rocks.

 

[gaabbee]

Just change up your wheeling buddies. Join the JT clubs and you will feel like a god.

Like you said, some areas you are better and some they are. If it bothers you that much (it shouldn't) then consider the RJ 44/60. Bolts right in and you can sell your rubi axles to make up some difference. Plus you get to pick your gearing and lockers. You will get better caster angles and the HP front.

 

[mrblaine]

Just change up your wheeling buddies. Join the JT clubs and you will feel like a god.

Like you said, some areas you are better and some they are. If it bothers you that much (it shouldn't) then consider the RJ 44/60. Bolts right in and you can sell your rubi axles to make up some difference. Plus you get to pick your gearing and lockers. You will get better caster angles and the HP front.

For 37's?

 

[Rubicon John]

Axles are always going to be a challenge simply due to how many have limited experience with one or two styles and then the internet gets involved and wants you to buy a junkyard piece of shit and start puking metal all over it. Then the ground clearance this and bullshit that starts.

At the end of the day, look at what you are replacing and consider that a wash for pricing. JY axle needs a locker? Yep, add that to the cost and factor that into the custom price. Needs gears? Same thing again. Gonna need some stronger or new axles so you can run 35 spline? How about a bracket kit and brakes? Don't think just because something has OEM brakes on it that you can readily make that work, some of the bigger calipers will require more brake power than the TJ booster can muster.

I've seen lots of folks tell others to get some Super Duty crap because they can be had cheap. That is the least of your expense by the time you can get it all under there and get it working. At the end, the honest ones will tell you it would have been about the same cost and far easier to order up a Currie RJ or similar and do not overlook the value of a High Pinion in the rocks.

I love this post because it applies to our TJs and also many other machines out there. Sometimes nice high end aftermarket parts will end up costing as much as fabbing up donor parts in which case you might as well swipe the card.

 

[Blackjack]

I'm not convinced I need to go to 37s. Like @mrblaine said, I'm now tuning all the little things that will make a difference.

Axle width is definitely something on my mind. I'm on the second rear and have broken u joints and the yoke a couple times. At some point I'm going to need to move up from the Rubicon 44s under the Jeep now. I've looked at lots of options, including 9", but it's hard to argue with the 60. My challenge here is the width. Going to a 64.5" wide axle will cause me all kinds of grief, given a significant amount of time is spent in tight woods.

Also, I've come to realize that rocks are rocks, regardless of where you are. I'm still going to have the same break-over and departure angle issues, regardless of whether I'm in JV or climbing over rocks in the mountains of PA. Frankly, time is my enemy and I'm at a point where I'd like to just send you my Jeep, so you can fix some of my ignorant modifications. Unfortunately, shipping prices are stupid high now, so I'm mulling over what to do here.

As always, thanks for taking the time to share your knowledge, it does help many of us see things differently!

For the rear there is the option of going 35 spline elocker with JK 44 gears. While not quite as strong as a 60 it gets you pretty close with nothing more than a few minutes of extra prep during setup. The JK gears pinon spline will allow you to run a 1350 driveshaft if you want to. That also saves money over a new axle at least for the rear that can be used towards a better front axle.

 

[Blackjack]

Axles are always going to be a challenge simply due to how many have limited experience with one or two styles and then the internet gets involved and wants you to buy a junkyard piece of shit and start puking metal all over it. Then the ground clearance this and bullshit that starts.

At the end of the day, look at what you are replacing and consider that a wash for pricing. JY axle needs a locker? Yep, add that to the cost and factor that into the custom price. Needs gears? Same thing again. Gonna need some stronger or new axles so you can run 35 spline? How about a bracket kit and brakes? Don't think just because something has OEM brakes on it that you can readily make that work, some of the bigger calipers will require more brake power than the TJ booster can muster.

I've seen lots of folks tell others to get some Super Duty crap because they can be had cheap. That is the least of your expense by the time you can get it all under there and get it working. At the end, the honest ones will tell you it would have been about the same cost and far easier to order up a Currie RJ or similar and do not overlook the value of a High Pinion in the rocks.

Something that gets overlooked about JY stuff and especially all these people that are going for the Superduty stuff is how much that massive increase in unsprung weight diminshes the ride quality of their Jeep. Not a big deal if you only go slow but it really sucks if you actually want to drive any distance at speed.

 

[gaabbee]

For 37's?

I know ball joints are the issue but the 60s are another 5k per axle. I'm having the same internal argument. What's your thoughts of just running 35s and then have a spare set of 37s for the harder trail rides?

 

[mrblaine]

I know ball joints are the issue but the 60s are another 5k per axle. I'm having the same internal argument. What's your thoughts of just running 35s and then have a spare set of 37s for the harder trail rides?

My thoughts are that mind set is why I keep kicking myself in the ass for getting involved in these discussions. At some point I'm going to realize the stupidity of doing so even further and avoid them like I should.

Now we're gonna get the 44 rah rah crowd with there wholly unproven balljoint delete bullshit and here we go again. God dammit I am just fucking stupid sometimes.

 

[jjvw]

My thoughts are that mind set is why I keep kicking myself in the ass for getting involved in these discussions. At some point I'm going to realize the stupidity of doing so even further and avoid them like I should.

Now we're gonna get the 44 rah rah crowd with there wholly unproven balljoint delete bullshit and here we go again. God dammit I am just fucking stupid sometimes.

You also don't compromise where you don't have to.

 

[gaabbee]

My thoughts are that mind set is why I keep kicking myself in the ass for getting involved in these discussions. At some point I'm going to realize the stupidity of doing so even further and avoid them like I should.

Now we're gonna get the 44 rah rah crowd with there wholly unproven balljoint delete bullshit and here we go again. God dammit I am just fucking stupid sometimes.

My apologies @mrblaine. I have seen many of your builds and strive to replicate them some day but I don't think I've come across an unlimited build of yours on 37s, so I don't know the direction you take.

 

[mrblaine]

My apologies @mrblaine. I have seen many of your builds and strive to replicate them some day but I don't think I've come across an unlimited build of yours on 37s, so I don't know the direction you take.