Can I get a redo for today please?

[MrMark52]

Well once I can get this into my neighbors shop we plan on replacing all the parts in the clutch system.

Got some replies on the Subaru forum and they feel it might be a bad slave cylinder. So just replace the master at the same time just to CYA.

Yeah, after how you described the original failure I sure would have looked deeper into a linkage issue - and this one was further complicated by the hydraulic clutch components.

I would strongly urge that when you pull the clutch master and slave cylinders that you take them apart to see if you can figure if they were sticking - otherwise you may not have identified the real culprit (although I suspect you have).

And I assume your replacing the pressure plate and throw-out bearing, plus checking the yoke fork for free movement in the bell housing while applying angular forces against it (you never know which direction the slave cylinder is actually coming from, even thought at a glance one would think it is being applied in the direction of rod travel.
I was also check for any odd wear patterns on the yoke fork as well as in the bell housing opening.

Or, as I had in my old Volkswagen's as well as a Kubota tractor I had to replace a clutch/pressure plate/throw-out bearing in about 10 years ago - neither had a yoke fork to support the throw-out bearing, but a rod that went through the bell housing.
I never had an issue with any of the VW's I worked on, but for the tractor, that rod was frozen up inside the bell housing. We had to heat the heavy mass of the tractor housing and beat it out with a hand sledge.

FWIW - if you've never worked on a tractor - for most farm-like tractors, the engine, transmission, rear axle are all a part of bolted together assembly that also make up the frame of the tractor. To work on any one of those assemblies requires splitting the tractor in two - not an easy task without the right kind of shop equipment (overhead hoist, transmission jack, hydraulic car jack).

The pictures you provided of pulling the Subaru engine to do the clutch work were somewhat reminiscent of working on that tractor.

And finally, because this happened when she had just started the car and was letting it warm up - I suspect this is a clutch start car (you must depress the clutch to start the car to insure you don't try to start it with the transmission in gear) - that really, really leads me to believe there is either a hydraulic cylinder problem or mechanical issue in the linkage as described above - all while keeping in mind that if at various times while driving the clutch is only partially engaged, it is starting to glaze and getting hot. Something that may not be realized by a novice driver or someone who is not mechanically sensitive to the sounds and smells of a partially engaged clutch.

 

[Wildman]

Thanks for the input Mr.Mark52,
Yes the new throwout bearing was checked to make sure it slid smoothly on the front snout on the transmission.

I'm really leaning toward the slave cylinder as being the problem but it could also be the master. The really bad part of all this is that the neighbors shop that I'm working at his driveway to it is STEEP. Last time there wasn't any snow so it was EASY to get the car up to his shop. But now I'm trying to figure out how to do it. If I knew someone who had a push truck for racing I'd try to borrow it.
And YES I know the trick of sticking a tire or two between the bumpers. Her Subaru is a lot lower than my truck.

Makes me really wish my Jeep was running. I'd just tow it up to the top with a strap shortened to about 3'. Then unhook and use my winch to get it the rest of the way into the shop.

Yes I've worked on tractors before. Use to work at a rental yard before I joined the Army.
First time I worked on one it was the little Kubota diesel rig in the mid 70's. Had to do a clutch job & replace the output shaft for the PTO. I used a portable A-frame setup to split it . I worked on it all night because it was going back out on a rental the next day.

 

[MrMark52]

Thanks for the input Mr.Mark52,
Yes the new throwout bearing was checked to make sure it slid smoothly on the front snout on the transmission.

I'm really leaning toward the slave cylinder as being the problem but it could also be the master. The really bad part of all this is that the neighbors shop that I'm working at his driveway to it is STEEP. Last time there wasn't any snow so it was EASY to get the car up to his shop. But now I'm trying to figure out how to do it. If I knew someone who had a push truck for racing I'd try to borrow it.
And YES I know the trick of sticking a tire or two between the bumpers. Her Subaru is a lot lower than my truck.

Makes me really wish my Jeep was running. I'd just tow it up to the top with a strap shortened to about 3'. Then unhook and use my winch to get it the rest of the way into the shop.

Yes I've worked on tractors before. Use to work at a rental yard before I joined the Army.
First time I worked on one it was the little Kubota diesel rig in the mid 70's. Had to do a clutch job & replace the output shaft for the PTO. I used a portable A-frame setup to split it . I worked on it all night because it was going back out on a rental the next day.

First of all Thank You for your service!

Good on checking the slide of the throw-out bearing, but also make sure that whatever is holding it in the bell housing isn't getting into a bind somehow.
IIRC, clutch pedals normally don't have additional springs to help them return all the way to the top of their travel, to include insuring the pedal and linkage are not partly engaging the clutch - which would lead to partial clutch slippage which leads to eventual failure and/or short life. But if there is an additional return force that is supposed to be applied, make sure it's there, and not broken (if a coil type spring around a shaft was possibly used as opposed to one more like is/was found on old carburetor throttle linkage then it's harder to tell if it might be broken which in turn would allow decreased return force. If the old carburetor type of spring, was used and breaks, it's probably not there any more as there isn't anything to hold it in place).
Again, I don't think I would just replace or rebuild the slave cylinder without doing the same to the clutch master cylinder as well - to include blowing out the interconnecting line. I'm going to guess that a rebuild kit would be much, much cheaper than buying a new or rebuilt, and you sound as though you have the mechanicing skills needed to do such a simple rebuild.

Which brings to mind what I think is an IMPORTANT thought! - I would closely inspect the hydraulic line between the clutch master and slave cylinders.
If it's rubber, replace it - PERIOD There are known issues with rubber lines failing internally that prevent brake wheel cylinders and calipers from opening back up after the brakes were applied. Same thing can happen here only it's a clutch we're talking about (and I would certainly look to doing the same for all the remaining hydraulic brake lines on the car).
If it's a metal line, I would make sure it's clean internally and not pinched or partly collapsed at any point.

If a flow restriction occurs on a clutch system, that would cause the slave to not fully return to an UN-engaged position thus causing the issues of short clutch life as noted above.

Regardless of it's assembly, I would make certain every aspect of that hydraulic clutch system is spic and span clean from end to end.

Just thought on getting the car up the hill assuming you have a good anchor or big tree up near your friends shop - Go to Harbor Freight/Northern/Lowes/Home Depot and get a roofers rope (1/2" or so nylon) and a rope pulley. Hook the pulley to the anchor, Connect one end of the rope to the Subaru, then through the pulley, then back to your or someone else's truck or car. Put someone in the Subaru and someone in the pulling car and pull it up the hill to the shop.

 

[Wildman]

Because of the issues this car had before with the clutch all the parts were inspected as we reassembled it. The TO bearing fork was inspected and we played with it's throw and tried to put it in a bind as the TO slid on the snout.

Yes I agree IMO it'd be foolish to just replace the slave or master cylinder alone. I feel at this point I was foolish for not replacing them both when I did the clutch before. So they will both be replaces along with the connecting hose so that everything in the clutch system is NEW. I don't want to have to mess with this anymore.

I'll have to look and see if there is a suitable point to use as a point to tie off a snatch block. But I'm still gunna have to get it up the driveway some as it's a LONG ass drive. I'll try to remember to snap a picture of it.

It was a load of fun to back my trailer back down it and then back it back up it last time.

 

[MrMark52]

Because of the issues this car had before with the clutch all the parts were inspected as we reassembled it. The TO bearing fork was inspected and we played with it's throw and tried to put it in a bind as the TO slid on the snout.

Yes I agree IMO it'd be foolish to just replace the slave or master cylinder alone. I feel at this point I was foolish for not replacing them both when I did the clutch before. So they will both be replaces along with the connecting hose so that everything in the clutch system is NEW. I don't want to have to mess with this anymore.

I'll have to look and see if there is a suitable point to use as a point to tie off a snatch block. But I'm still gunna have to get it up the driveway some as it's a LONG ass drive. I'll try to remember to snap a picture of it.

It was a load of fun to back my trailer back down it and then back it back up it last time.

I totally hear ya on making as much as possible new or confirmed rebuilt to be like new - pulling that engine out is a real PITA every few weeks, not to mention the cost of a clutch and pressure plate - and what may eventually be a flywheel.

Keep us posted on what you find (even though not a Jeep, but you may find something that will help others in similar situations) !

 

[MrMark52]

I totally hear ya on making as much as possible new or confirmed rebuilt to be like new - pulling that engine out is a real PITA every few weeks, not to mention the cost of a clutch and pressure plate - and what may eventually be a flywheel.

Keep us posted on what you find (even though not a Jeep, but you may find something that will help others in similar situations) !

Hey @Wildman - tell us the year and model of this Subaru. Would help in being able to see an exploded view of the cluch and linkage components.

 

[Wildman]

2002 Subaru Outback wagon with a 2.5

 

[Wildman]

Well NO REAL indicators to what went wrong. I wasn't there yesterday when my neighbor pulled the engine out as I was sick but when I went down this morning to look at things and the only thing I could see was one of the clips had come off the throw out bearing. Now I don't know if it came off during the pulling of the engine or if had come off after the clutch was installed last time. If it did come off then that would explain things.

Plan at this point is to is he's going to keep it for a few days and drive it to make sure everything is okay.

Clutch disc:

Pressure plate:

Flywheel:

 

[MrMark52]

Mmmmm - if one of the clips that holds the throw-out bearing in came out, then I'm pretty certain all that would happen is the clutch wouldn't release when you pressed the clutch pedal because the throw-out bearing would not be able to push against the fingers on the pressure plate.
But for most every throw-out bearing I can remember dealing with, the clips just hold the throw-out bearing in place for reassembly, The throw-out bearing yoke takes the brunt of the force when the clutch pedal is pressed, not the clips.
Once the engine and tranny are reassembled, the throw-out bearing is held in place by the fingers of the pressure plate holding into the clutch yoke.

Remember, the clutch/pressure plate assembly are one big rotating assembly when the car is in gear. The throw-out bearing, clutch disk and pressure plate at that point are just along for the ride until the clutch pedal is pressed.
And there should always be 1/2 to 3/4 inch of travel (check Subaru's FSM for correct clutch pedal play) before you feel the throw-out bearing begin to engage the clutch (press on the fingers of the pressure plate).

Is he being certain to put the right thickness of clutch in? Too thick and there will always be drag between the pressure plate/clutch/flywheel (the same is true of a improperly adjusted clutch pedal). Of course you would also start smelling clutch pretty soon after your return to driving the car.

Is he replacing the pressure plate or using the old one? If using the old one, is he inspecting for any reasons why it might be hanging in a partly released or closed position? Did he check the pressure plate for flatness?

One of my early mistakes I made when putting a pressure plate on was tightening one mounting bolt to near tight before tightening the next one, going from one nut to the next - not criss-crossing the pressure plate. My Dad wasn't too happy with me about that when I showed him my work (fortunately we were able to take all back apart and the pressure plate wasn't warped). But I did learn my lesson.

 

[Wildman]

The reason I mentioned the clip is becasue when I was messing with it the throw out bearing got cocked on the snout.
But as I read thru your post it got me thinking more. The pressure plate would push it back so as you said they shouldn't matter.

We are reusing the pressure plate and flywheel since this is more or less a new clutch system. Everything was replaced as a unit last time. Yes everything was checked and is within the spec's.

And yes the pressure plate is being installed properly. Because this has been a problem before I am still leaning to something in the hydraulic system. With one clutch being done at 112K and then redone @ 123K and then @ 163K and then only lasting a week?? I'll look at the slave & master cyl more. Plus I think I'll split the hose open to see if it's swelled inside. There has to be an answer.
Even if my daughter was a BAD driver I don't see the clutch going out in a week.

 

[MrMark52]

Yes - by all means renovate the clutch hydraulics - and at a minimum replace the hose regardless of what it looks like!

 

[Wildman]

Yes - by all means renovate the clutch hydraulics - and at a minimum replace the hose regardless of what it looks like!

Everything in the clutch system is now new. Mater cylinder/Slave cylinder/Connecting hose/Pressure plate/Clutch disc & Flywheel. So if it takes a shit again I really don't know where to look other than get my kid an automatic instead of a clutch.

 

[motomick76]

Everything in the clutch system is now new. Mater cylinder/Slave cylinder/Connecting hose/Pressure plate/Clutch disc & Flywheel. So if it takes a shit again I really don't know where to look other than get my kid an automatic instead of a clutch.

You could trade, take the Subi and give her your truck.

 

[Wildman]

You could trade, take the Subi and give her your truck.

Have you seen the DENTS she has put into my truck already???

I have a restricted license and can't drive a clutch per WA state. The funny parts are that my license also says I have to have my prosthetic on while driving or riding my motorcycle.
Isn't that sort of a DUH?? At least on my bike?

 

[motomick76]

Have you seen the DENTS she has put into my truck already???

I have a restricted license and can't drive a clutch per WA state. The funny parts are that my license also says I have to have my prosthetic on while driving or riding my motorcycle.
Isn't that sort of a DUH?? At least on my bike?

Yep, I seen the dents! . So you can not drive a manual, but you can ride a motorcycle? According to Washington State?

 

[Wildman]

Yep, I seen the dents! . So you can not drive a manual, but you can ride a motorcycle? According to Washington State?

Yes. The day I went in to take my drive test I'd only been driving with my prosthetic for about a month so I was using my left foot for the brake and my right for gas. So the tester observed this and when we got back to the office told me they were going to be putting a restriction on my license for automatic only. If I want to be allowed to drive a manual transmission car I can come back in and retake the drive test with a manual car. But to be honest I don't see a need much anymore and it is REALLY hard to move my foot from gas to brake. Because I don't FEEL where my foot is it's a PITA to get it on the smaller brake pedal. I've driven a few manual rigs since then just to see if I can do it and I can but if I don't need to I really don't want to. I've gotten my foot stuck under the brake a few times becasue I can't feel it.

Riding a bike really isn't a HUGE deal with a right foot amputation since it's just the rear brake on that side. It took me some practice to figure out how to gauge how much pressure I was applying but I think I have it. The hard part was rocking all that weight over to my right side to take the side stand up and shift into 1st.

 

[motomick76]

It would be hard to do, as vechles are designed around using your right foot, not your left.

You really have to be careful on the bike if you are stopping, etc.

So if you got pulled over driving the Subi, what would be the ticket?

 

[Wildman]

It would be hard to do, as vechles are designed around using your right foot, not your left.

You really have to be careful on the bike if you are stopping, etc.

So if you got pulled over driving the Subi, what would be the ticket?

Yes if I was driving a manual trans rig it would be. The same as if you have a restriction for glasses and get pulled over and don't have any on and aren't wearing contacts.

No stopping and stuff on the bike is easy it's putting all that weight onto my right side. I have a 900lb bike so when I shift that weight to my right side it's a little painful but you get use to it.

But it's funny that the state tells me I have to wear my leg when riding.... DUH

Now I have driven with just my left leg a few times. But I try not to.