Corrosion resistant, light weight TJ frame

jjvw said:
Glad this is of interest.

Typically the towers are within .5" of the inner wall of the frame. I'll guess that 80-90% of the width is removed. The wider positioning of the shocks is for two reasons. First, it avoids cutting the body. Second, the wider stance adds stability to the suspension. Another benefit is that this mod also involves moving the lower mount behind the axle side control arm mount. This opens the "window" underneath the axle for obstacles to pass through.
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Wow ... not much rail remaining ... let me complete the OEM TJ CAD model this week ... I will upoad a 3vu DWG for the forum to review and find my errors ... it would also be a good reference to use when determining options ... such as when the upper/lower HDPT of the Extreme Damper are fixed or slightly varying ... the Modular RailTool can have a bespoke geometry that will provide a moulded perch rather than the separate moulding which would be bonded on after curing/machining.
 
jjvw said:
To pick one significant frame mod that most ambitious people can tackle, look at the rear shock outboard. This involves frenching in a pair of shock towers deeply into the frame rails. And the upper spring mount is moved to a new location. To my untrained sense of things, this feels like it would be costly and difficult to anticipate into the composite frame design. I'm curious how this might be overcome.

View attachment 46054
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Another option is to simply add a local Section geometry change to the frame ie taller and thinner ... this would be a simple change of the FrameTool section profile in that area ... then add the Perch as a Bonded Bracket ..
 
If Blaine hadn't exiled himself from the forum, I'm 100% certain he'd have some useful input here.

I'm very curious to see where this goes though. If one could buy a frame with out-boarded shocks, corrosion resistant, and lightweight... that would be like the holy grail of TJ parts!
 
Chris said:
If Blaine hadn't exiled himself from the forum, I'm 100% certain he'd have some useful input here.

I'm very curious to see where this goes though. If one could buy a frame with out-boarded shocks, corrosion resistant, and lightweight... that would be like the holy grail of TJ parts!
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Chris, Where I am attempting to go, is to provided a lightweight composite Frame using modular tooling that during mfg can be configured for OEM TJ/ LJ and extended versions with a reasonable variation of Suspension options that is close to OEM NOS price points AND provides the auditable manufacturer with a 20% Gross Profit Margin ... If resellers/distributors can add value such as customer support then they can have 10% on top (not 50, not 75 and definitely not 100%) That is the business model under which I will permit licensed manufacturing of these frames .... I understand this “rodeo” well. :)
 
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I'm curious... You've mentioned 120% of the cost of NOS. Are you able to find NOS frames? I haven't, aside from the odd one on Craigslist occasionally. Price varies widely. I wish you all the best, but you're selling into a very limited market. First, the guy who needs a frame for a vehicle that's been out of production for a minimum 12 years, that doesn't also need a tub has got to be pretty rare. Then... That guy has to be willing to swap the frame over, which is not a small feat.

Then again... You can get CJ Frames and fiberglass tubs.... So what do I know!
 
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Ranger_b0b said:
I'm curious... You've mentioned 120% of the cost of NOS. Are you able to find NOS frames? I haven't, aside from the odd one on Craigslist occasionally. Price varies widely. I wish you all the best, but you're selling into a very limited market. First, the guy who needs a frame for a vehicle that's been out of production for a minimum 12 years, that doesn't also need a tub has got to be pretty rare. Then... That guy has to be willing to swap the frame over, which is not a small feat.

Then again... You can get CJ Frames and fiberglass tubs.... So what do I know!
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You are correct about a limited TJ market ... the plan is to demonstrate cross product application of a common material/process to distribute the NRC (Non Recurring Cost) and get to a cost point that permits a 20% manufacturing margin AND is close to a NOS price. A 2018 NOS price point can be rationally acheived by correlating market Ladder Frame costs of comparable mass and weldment count ... ROM MRSP for the min expected demand rates of 50/y/5yrs for each of the CJ, YJ, TJ, LJ, and JK OEM and Semi-Custom Frames (extended, lifted etc) should range between 7.5k and 10k per Frame Kit (End User is required to Bond and Hi-Lok the self fixturing kit) ... the difficult part is maximizing the rationalization of the 5 Frame Configurations to reach/maximize market ... it is also the only way that the cost of manufacturing can become affordable to the End User ... well that is the plan anyway ... :)
 
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rowen01960 said:
You are correct about a limited TJ market ... the plan is to demonstrate cross product application of a common material/process to distribute the NRC (Non Recurring Cost) and get to a cost point that permits a 20% manufacturing margin AND is close to a NOS price. A 2018 NOS price point can be rationally acheived by correlating market Ladder Frame costs of comparable mass and weldment count ... ROM MRSP for the min expected demand rates of 50/y/5yrs for each of the CJ, YJ, TJ, LJ, and JK OEM and Semi-Custom Frames (extended, lifted etc) should range between 7.5k and 10k per Frame Kit (End User is required to Bond and Hi-Lok the self fixturing kit) ... the difficult part is maximizing the rationalization of the 5 Frame Configurations to reach/maximize market ... it is also the only way that the cost of manufacturing can become affordable to the End User ... well that is the plan anyway ... :)
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I would guess that at that price, you won't sell 50 a year. Last NOS frame I found was 2500. Add to that, you're fighting an uphill battle trying to get acceptance of a plastic frame (no matter how highly engineered, people are going to hear plastic) and the ease of which steel can be modified...

Not only the DIY guy, but how many shops have experience bonding plastic? I know it's not a trivial thing to do. Special adhesives, cure time, UV, heat, applicators, etc. Lots to learn...I hope your thinking about liability.
 
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Ranger_b0b said:
I would guess that at that price, you won't sell 50 a year. Last NOS frame I found was 2500. Add to that, you're fighting an uphill battle trying to get acceptance of a plastic frame (no matter how highly engineered, people are going to hear plastic) and the ease of which steel can be modified...

Not only the DIY guy, but how many shops have experience bonding plastic? I know it's not a trivial thing to do. Special adhesives, cute time, UV, heat, applicators, etc. Lots to learn...I hope your thinking about liability.
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You are correct, Plastic (ie Petro based Polymers do not play nicel (Creep, Reduced Stiffness abd Strength) in ETD (Elevated Temperature and Dry or Wet Environments) ... they also are Flammable unless retardants are added which add cost, weight and redue Stiffness and Strength. My design uses Geopolymer a cementitious quasi-ceramic as the matrix.

My design does not intend to compete with used or NOS Frames, it is an improvement with a manufactured Cost Point that is close to the NOS Price Point of equivalent mass and welded blank or hydroformed Ladder Frames (ie JK, Tacomas, Frontiers ...)

The Baseline Configuration will be the OEM specification ... all “Bolt-On” aftermarket modifications will fit the fully Assembled Frame. For those DIYers that need HDPT location flexibility ... the Frame Rails, XMBRs, all Bracketry fasteners and Adhesive can be provided in a Knock-Down (Flat-Pack) configuration. This permits longitudinal Bonding and Bolting position of the Brackets to be determined by the End-User. Lateral and Vertical position requirements are accommodated/specified in the Bespoke Composite Bracket. Additional Bracket location flexibility (moment limited) can be accommodated with Universal Composite Adapters which introduce loads into the Frame and provide a bolting interface to End User Steel machinings or weldments.

The Bond and Bolt requirement is to accomodate Build Variance (Surface Prep and Bondline) of the 1-Off Frames in a non-controlled shop ... factory assembled Frames will not require fasteners... I expect that repeatable, precision located HDPTs and Dimensionally verified frames will be desirable.

With respect to Liability... the frames will conform to current FMVSS and Global NCAP sections for crashworthiness ..initial LS-DYNA simulations correlated to Physical Frontal (all) Side and Pole Impacts...

Jeeps were exported globally ... the new frames will also be global...

I hope the above adressed the identified concerns ... of course I could have overlooked something ... but that is why I created this thread ... :)
 
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I can see your factory assembled frames conforming to FMVSS and NCAP, but the guy who gets a DIY one...that is the specific liability I'm worried about for your sake. Unfortunately, we live in a litigious world (well, USA) and I can see someone trying to sue over improper bonding, or some other non-sense. Whether they win or lose is almost irrelevant at this point...the cost of a trial and public infamy would be enough to do almost any upstart in.

Don't get me wrong, I think its a cool idea. I just don't see the market being friendly. That's why I'm an Operations Guy and not an Entrepreneur! I can come up with all kinds of reasons "why not" and its hard for me to push for DO IT.
 
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:) ... its always good to know where the “edge” is ... because impulsive creative types (me) always need sanity checks by others ... good ideas will survive the checks ... weak ones will fade to grey ... my experience ..

I have some experience with FMVSS/EuroNCAP and composites crash energy management ... (BMW ZT22/i3) The prefab Frame Rails include replaceable “Crush Members” ... these are the only critical failure zones in the Frame ... all other failures will be benign failures through excessive deformation and loss of stiffness/fracture but no separation ... provided the rails are not modified beyond the allowables ... keep in mind that crashes are conformed at < 45mph ... so design liability above the current global standards for impact velocity is a pretty big hill .. liability for DIY frames will require gross negligence on the part of the DIYer to fail a Frame or Bracket in a non-benign mode. Elements attached in an unapproved manner ... well that would be pretty obvious ... and well documented by OEM Commercial Body Upfitters ...

Product in-service abuse is always a problem ... easily recorded with imbedded Fibre Optic Grates (HUMS)
 
Just realized I might have “maligned” the DIYers in my previous post ... apologies ... it was not intentional as ... in this case they are actually a required part of the Continuing New Product Development Team ... their imagination and implementation are the seeds of continuing product development ... a HUMS (Health Usage Monitoring System) is just a passive Total Life Cycle recording/reporting system to autonomously document the usage load spectra of a product ... similar to the typical orange boxes and gauge wiring used during Static/Dynamic Testing of Development Articles.

Strain and Deformation exceedance of the Frame Design Allowables is passively recorded ... thus helping to understand numerically what happened ... and learning something from the Test/Trial failure or success ....
 
Ok Electrical Questions ...

How much of a usage problem/benefit is it to have all grounding requirements contained in the Loom? Ground Stids/Poles would be isolated from each other.

It possible to provide both a High Energy and Low Engergy Ground Plane in the Frame but I would like to consider the impact of having them in the Loom Itself ...

Complaints (explanations pls) and Complements will be received equally ...
 
jjvw said:
look at the rear shock outboard
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Agreed, I think just a straight replacement has a market but with a few upgrades, like the outboard shock mount, maybe detachable lower suspension arm options, stock, plus something tucked up out of the way, and still able to incorporate the Curry AntiRock Sway Bars. Front for sure with a low winch plate option.

I just cannot see selling the volume to make it a viable enterprise. For me, I'd prefer an open, c section steel frame, like every truck had 30 years ago. Rather than another rectangular tube design. Regardless of the material. How do I attach a trailer hitch? or winch plate? if it is a composite frame.
 
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Wow! With 30 plus years in the collision industry I'm also very interested, however it's mostly Greek to me as well. I'll be watching & reading! Very cool idea!
 
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billiebob said:
Agreed, I think just a straight replacement has a market but with a few upgrades, like the outboard shock mount, maybe detachable lower suspension arm options, stock, plus something tucked up out of the way, and still able to incorporate the Curry AntiRock Sway Bars. Front for sure with a low winch plate option.

I just cannot see selling the volume to make it a viable enterprise. For me, I'd prefer an open, c section steel frame, like every truck had 30 years ago. Rather than another rectangular tube design. Regardless of the material. How do I attach a trailer hitch? or winch plate? if it is a composite frame.
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All of the options mentioned should viable as BondedBolted options for the 1-Offs , given consistant demand they should provided as a factory bond option to the “Stock” Frame.
A small non-linear section area D-Tube frame (Hydroformed) is structurally optimized for mass and deformation ... however it is a royal pain at the XMBR interfaces ... better to do the complete Rail/Non-Separable XMBRS as a single moulding with hitch interface... but the insurance companies would balk (frame assy accident right-off, however if the velocities are exceeded ... the standard/Regs were met and the insurance needs to pay out) and the number of dedicated moulding tools would be cost prohibitive given the low rate of demand.
 
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Ted05Rubi said:
Wow! With 30 plus years in the collision industry I'm also very interested, however it's mostly Greek to me as well. I'll be watching & reading! Very cool idea!
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You and I should discuss repair/replace scenarios and the recent goings on with the insurance companies ... I personnally am of the predefined limited repair and then replace mind ... my education on the BMW Z22(i3) taught me all about the limits of “straightening” of Structural Frames
 
Ok ... I have started the TJ Frame ASSY, I am dismayed at the level of quality of the -582/-583 Frame Drawings/Specifications ... I was taught (1996) to always use the Buttline/CL as the XZ Plane, the FWD Axle Longitudinal location as the YZ Plane, and the FWD Axle Vertical Location as the XY Plane ... seems only the JK/JL Frames and later adhere to this concept.

Oh well another legacy drawing in need of renewal .... I should have a 3VU OEM ready to share on Thurs/Friday of this week. I need to run a simulation on that model in steel to correlate to the real OEM frame ...

I would like to have interested forum members review and comment on the deformation response of the OEM frame at 1/2/3G at GVWR ... there will also be an Eix (Long Bend deformation at GVWR) and a GJ (Torsional/Twist deformation at GVWR) ... support 3 corners of the frame load to GVRW and measure the droop of the one corner at the frame height ... this test would not be advisable if you have rust concerns in your current frame ... :)

Your responses will establish a lower, a mean, and an upper limit for 1G stiffness, repairs and/or mods to the frames should be noted as well ... this data will either show my model as utter BS ... or that it has some legs/validity ...hoping for the later ....:)
 
rowen01960 said:
can be configured for OEM TJ/ LJ and extended versions
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Now yer talkin' I'd love to start a "Brute" build on that frame. But honestly, lightweight is not an issue for guys driving Wranglers. If it was, no one would bolt on after market bumpers and spare tire carriers. I think we want corrosion proof frames we can modify.
 
billiebob said:
Now yer talkin' I'd love to start a "Brute" build on that frame. But honestly, lightweight is not an issue for guys driving Wranglers. If it was, no one would bolt on after market bumpers and spare tire carriers. I think we want corrosion proof frames we can modify.
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Weight is a “fallout benefit” of using lower density High performance materials ... production repeatability is improved as Casting/Injection moulding is a production improvement over machinings and weldments ... I reviewed the Brute ... I also like the concept as a “Kit” I could not see 98k worth of materials/labour/NRC ... 50k was still valued to high for a completed vehicle ... maybe it was an expensive Stereo system ...

I honestly think that if a low weight, tailored stiffness, high GVWR capable frame were made available with multiple configuration options ... a wide market appeal could be generated ... for OE, Modders and Extreme Modders .... all derived from a clever cost effective Frame Design ...
 
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