OP
Are there any trails you can’t do at hawk pride or windrock?
I watch trail videos of the most difficult trails at either of these parks but no one is on 35s
East coast vs West coast wheeling
- Thread starter RHanna
- Start date
Are there any trails you can’t do at hawk pride or windrock?
I watch trail videos of the most difficult trails at either of these parks but no one is on 35s
Actually, we're not allowed to have fun anymore.
East vs West is too cliche.
Physics is physics and there are things that flat out remain the same for the rigs behavior no matter the terrain. Those are things like anti squat, instant center, center of gravity, et al
Beyond that it seems to me it comes down to what terrain your trying to go over and how you’re trying to go over it.
Sand with jumping dunes and long hill climbs
Rock buggies bouncing up rocks and sheer cliffs.
Mud boggers
Rock crawlers
Lots could vary with respect to engines, transmissions, axles, tires, gear ratio for a terrain, but you’re still trying to get good behavior and that’s a function of the earlier parameters.
I’m ready to learn if I’m off base here.
Physics is physics and there are things that flat out remain the same for the rigs behavior no matter the terrain. Those are things like anti squat, instant center, center of gravity, et al
Beyond that it seems to me it comes down to what terrain your trying to go over and how you’re trying to go over it.
Sand with jumping dunes and long hill climbs
Rock buggies bouncing up rocks and sheer cliffs.
Mud boggers
Rock crawlers
Lots could vary with respect to engines, transmissions, axles, tires, gear ratio for a terrain, but you’re still trying to get good behavior and that’s a function of the earlier parameters.
I’m ready to learn if I’m off base here.
Only true "dunes" that come to mind for the east coast would be Jockey Ridge in NC. It's technically not "on the beach", but is in the Outer Banks, which is essentially a stone's throw to water on either side.
Then you have some in Michigan (Sleeping Bear), though that is using the "east" definition fairly loosely.
They let you wheel on Jockey Ridge? I always thought Kill Devil Hill - Wright Brothers and all that - and the areas around there were all off limits. But, it’s been quite a few years since I’ve been there.
I'm not coming up with anything here. I'm literally quoting people's posts and guessing what is meant by the statements that aren't completely explicit. For the specific example I quoted, I'm merely trying to fill in the blanks of what might be meant by:
And because there are a number of folks who seem to think I'm just making this shit up, here are a couple of specific examples where while not specifically referring to east/west, you yourself have alluded to different rig setups being appropriate for different terrain, specifically with the tire size, belly height, and wheelbase relationship. I haven't brought these up yet because I haven't had the time until now to dig through my "informative threads saved for future reference", but even as old as these posts are they've been stuck in my head and built upon the pervasive assertion being discussed.
(emphasis mine)
https://wranglertjforum.com/threads...ture-angles—im-an-odd-duck.43129/#post-722107
(again, emphasis mine)
https://wranglertjforum.com/threads/tire-size-and-wheelbase.26812/#post-432707
All we're trying to get at with all the questions are what are these very clear examples? I leave open the possibility that I've somehow misconstrued your meaning and if that's the case, what did you mean?
Same rig I've had to SMORR (MO), Crossbar, Clayton, Poteau, (OK), Hot Springs (AR), Sand Hollow, Moab, all of CO, all of NV, all of TX and several trips to Johnson Valley. It wasn't built to satisfy wheeling in any one place, but I will say, it does damn good everywhere I have taken it. Even on the highway at 80mph. I've had many buggies over the years, I would choose this LJ 1000 times over because I've taken it everywhere I took those "purpose built" rigs and still have all the abilities a buggy does not.
When you can get past the where and just focus on the right things on your own rig, it won't matter where you go. I've been places I never thought I'd wheel. But not once I showed up and felt handicapped because of my Jeep. Driver skill maybe, but not the Jeep.
When you can get past the where and just focus on the right things on your own rig, it won't matter where you go. I've been places I never thought I'd wheel. But not once I showed up and felt handicapped because of my Jeep. Driver skill maybe, but not the Jeep.
These are such great examples of how a well built rig can perform so well everywhere! Thanks for posting them up.
All of the emphasis I place on bullshit like that is for the sake of bullshit. The reason for that is we know what works for our area, I build what works for our area. Then what happens is folks take that out of context and use it to beat others up by slinging it around as gospel. Then the guy getting beat up posts up an exception to the contrary with a report that while it invalidates my build philosophy, it works very well for some other region. So, I got into the habit of qualifying the discussions of MY philosophy with a regional distinction to stop most of the bullshit. It also goes back to the HP 30 versus LP 44 discussions. It is oft recommended that the HP 30 get used because we have been using them successfully but there again, no qualifiers to limit that to torque based wheeling and not wheel spin shock loading style. The diminutive bits inside the 30 won't survive any shock loading. So the qualifiers have to come out again so it is not a blanket recommendation. So I say we use what works for us to stop as much bullshit as possible, apparently that isn't working either.
Garrett's comparison above is yet another example of JV being used very incorrectly. There are lots of rigs that work in JV. What has happened over the years is we have frequently pointed out that if a part or product or way of doing things will survive a steady diet of being used in JV, then that should be paid attention to if you need something durable. That has been bastardized and perverted into a JV build philosophy as in something would work well out there and there really isn't such a thing. There are things you do to survive out there, armor, tolerable ground clearance, belly height versus wheelbase versus tire size balance, not too tall, not too low, and a solid effort made to pay attention to the hangy downy bits and not have them be so hangy downy.
There is a very clear JV philosophy for us that want to spend the least amount of time possible working on our rigs on the trail. There are 1000's of rigs that go out there on a regular basis that fully ignore that. The rig above all flopped over against the rock is on the last fall on Outer Limits and the last pic is my rig walking right through that exact same spot with exactly zero drama. There is not a JV build, there are ways of building for JV that are durable and limit undesirable things, but that is not a gold standard, it is just my standard. Your post is exactly why I've wound up posting it as a regional thing except you perverted that to be something else entirely.
I was thinking this morning about how wheel spin isn't always needed for an area but rather can be more related to driving style.
There was a sand play ground in Moab I was at with @jjvw and a few others. I was foot to the floor throwing sand everywhere. I get buried half way up doing an up hill turn and @jjvw comes crawling straight up past me going a couple of mph in low range and shouts over something like "I'm finding plenty of traction". We both were driving very similarly built Jeeps.
There was a sand play ground in Moab I was at with @jjvw and a few others. I was foot to the floor throwing sand everywhere. I get buried half way up doing an up hill turn and @jjvw comes crawling straight up past me going a couple of mph in low range and shouts over something like "I'm finding plenty of traction". We both were driving very similarly built Jeeps.
Yes. There are trails (obstacles) that I can't due. Mostly due to undercut rocks and steep slick steps.
I have walked up trails on 35's where bigger rigs struggled or did not make it and vice versa. Most of the guys I wheel with are in bigger rigs and not only do they still call me to come wheel with them, I generally tend to end up leading (mostly since I have a good sense of direction and I tend to not want to stand around and BS for 30 minutes between trails so I just keep moving). BUT another key difference is that I am not afraid to scratch or dent my TJ and I believe that my rig is not built perfectly, but built the best that it can be within the constraints of my budget, time, and know how. As my budget, time and know how changes (hopefully for the better and not worse), there will be changes made to my rig. Great thing about learning is that most of the learning is done while wheeling!
A point I often make about JV is everyone enjoys the same level of difficulty on the trails within reason. The reasonably well built rig on 35's sneaks right through the pair of 4' tall boulders. The guy behind him on 40's is too wide so he has to put one side tires on one of the boulders and figure out how not to flop it getting down off of them. Then he walks right up the double ledge that the guy on 35's has to pull cable on. I put tires on stuff and walk right up it, the guy on 35's falls into the hole and can't even get a tire on it. My diffs and axle tubes clear stuff that that guy on 35's has to put tires on to get over. At the end of the day, it all averages out for most of the trails out there whether you're on 35's or 40's.
I think an extreme example of this is those guys on dirt bikes that always seem to snake through rocks on the trail. I like using that as an example of why the wider JK body is worse than the TJ axle even if you use the same width axles and tire size.
Guys on dirt bikes don't do well on most of the JV trails, the guys on trials bikes on the other hand, do quite well.