EV thread

[freedom_in_4low]

Don't even get me started on carbon offsetting...such a sham, but one that is promoted and accepted.

Yeah they're dumb. I recently learned they are actually replacing "offsets" with "neutralizers". It basically means the same thing but you can't just throw money at it to buy neutralizers, you have to actually perform the neutralization activity. I guess it's a move in the right direction, if you buy into the whole thing to begin with.

 

[ColoJeep]

That's not at all what he's saying. Percent is not an optional, meaningless tag, it means "per cent", as in per hundred, as in

0.3 per 100 = 0.3/100 = .003

Okay Thanks ! , I misunderstood what he was saying ! And now BlueC has freshend up the OP post so all is right in the world .
At the end of the day EV's still don't make sense for most of us.
Thanks for taking the time to correct this , freedom in 4low !

 

[chili_pepper]

I guess it's a move in the right direction, if you buy into the whole thing to begin with.

I accept that our actions have consequences, we have done some damage and for many many decades (some might go farther than that). We are the only species on the planet that tends to shit where it eats, we are our own worst enemy in some ways.

But we know that promoters of the climate change agenda tend to massage the numbers in their favor and use fear of imminent death and destruction to motivate. Almost everything nowadays is linked to climate change (watch some videos or read a few articles on weather dot com as an example). Not everything is related to the issue, FFS... Also, you may have noticed it's always the little guy who has to tighten his belt the most in the end (that'd be us). For decades, large corporations have polluted unabated, simply paying the EPA's pathetic fines as it's more cost effective to do so than fix the problem. Hell, they probably write of the cost of the fines off on their taxes.

I think one of the tells of how crooked the whole agenda is has to do with the number of scumbag politicos who invested in all of this "green" technology right around the same time initiatives and legislation started to appear. They are some of the loudest promoters.

I think if we were honest about it and everyone did just a little, things could be a lot better than they are....but no one can cash in on that idea, so unlikely to happen. Just like healthcare, in the end it all comes down to profitability.

 

[BlueC]

The major grocer and retailer my company builds stuff for is preparing to rip out every piece of fossil fueled equipment in their 5000+ stores to go all electric. Bakery ovens, pan washers, unit heaters in the grocery cart atrium and receiving docks. They're saving some by using waste heat from the refrigeration system to provide space heat to the store but they're still looking at over 900A (at 480V) just in water heaters and having to upgrade the store electrical service by 30%.

Are you saying they're planning to heat these building with electric heat? Can a good sized open building actually be efficiently heated by a heat pump? Hell, I see older houses that can barely be heated by heat pumps around here, and I live in a relatively mild climate.

 

[chili_pepper]

Can a good sized open building actually be efficiently heated by a heat pump? Hell, I see older houses that can barely be heated by heat pumps around here, and I live in a relatively mild climate.

I'm still not sold on the idea that a heat pump is efficient anywhere...but they seem to be quite popular here in the People's Republic of Maryland.

 

[BlueC]

I'm still not sold on the idea that a heat pump is efficient anywhere...but they seem to be quite popular here in the People's Republic of Maryland.

They're sold significantly here too. I'd estimate 95% of new(er) houses have them, and probably 80% or more of replacements are heat pumps. In my personal experience, when they're used around here on houses built pre '90s they really struggle in the winter, and really anytime outside of our average temps. Basically any temps outside of 40–90 degrees and these heat pumps just can't keep up on older houses which are less insulated and a little leaky. I can walk into a house during the winter and feel within seconds if it's heated via heat pump or a fuel.

 

[NashvilleTJ]

Don't even get me started on carbon offsetting...such a sham, but one that is promoted and accepted.

Not saying I agree or disagree, but I guess it depends on which side you are on. My next door neighbor owns a few thousand acres up in Kentucky that he uses for hunting. He sells his carbon credits for several 10s of thousands of dollars a year. I believe he is currently in favor of the program…

 

[chili_pepper]

Not saying I agree or disagree, but I guess it depends on which side you are on. My next door neighbor owns a few thousand acres up in Kentucky that he uses for hunting. He sells his carbon credits for several 10s of thousands of dollars a year. I believe he is currently in favor of the program…

He's profiting from it so I don't doubt he supports it, and I don't necessarily fault him for doing it as he has the land and the money earned likely helps him keep it. My point is that it doesn't actually solve anything in the end and allows large offenders to continue with "business as usual", meanwhile others are being forced to pick up the slack and make real changes in how they live. I feel it only gives the appearance that a corporation is "going green" and works well for marketing purposes (which typically increases profitability). If we were actually serious about making a difference, programs like carbon offsetting wouldn't exist.

There may be some validity to the carbon neutralizing scheme mentioned by @freedom_in_4low, but I don't know enough to speak to it.

In a way we're kind of screwed, regardless. I mean, we still can't raise humans with enough common sense to not just throw trash on the ground as a means of disposal...and there is no "away" in "thrown away", it's just displacement of waste. I live in an area surrounded by waterways, anything that is thrown on the ground will end up in the water. It's not a depressed area yet people (many fairly wealthy) just throw things on the ground and think nothing of it. Bank fishermen leave their bait containers and refuse behind. Pretty basic concept to clean up after yourself, yet we don't do it. Maybe a little off the carbon mark but you probably get where I'm coming from.

 

[Rickyd]

Just piling loads onto the grid as if it's unlimited. I guess thats how they treat money so we shouldn't be surprised.

population is the same way. Everything we do is based on a growth model. Problem is the planet only has so much to give

 

[freedom_in_4low]

Are you saying they're planning to heat these building with electric heat? Can a good sized open building actually be efficiently heated by a heat pump? Hell, I see older houses that can barely be heated by heat pumps around here, and I live in a relatively mild climate.

Simply, yes. But in colder climates they're water source heat pumps, not air...so the outside temperature could be 45 or -25 and they don't know the difference because the water is 65 either way. (We call it water but it's really about 35% propylene glycol so it's more like automotive coolant but less toxic).

In those northern climates, the heat pumps pull heat from a main water loop to heat the space, and the refrigeration system heats the water back up. If there's not enough refrigeration heat, the electric water heater kicks in. In summer the heat pumps heat the water and then it's cooled by a dry cooler or an evaporative cooling tower depending on the local situation with respect to mean temperature and humidity conditions and the balance of power vs water cost.

 

[suicideking]

 

[chili_pepper]

population is the same way. Everything we do is based on a growth model. Problem is the planet only has so much to give

Almost every problem we face boils down to too many people. The max sustainable population numbers calculated for the planet were meant as a warning, not a target, but we seem hell-bent on hitting the mark.

 

[freedom_in_4low]

They're sold significantly here too. I'd estimate 95% of new(er) houses have them, and probably 80% or more of replacements are heat pumps. In my personal experience, when they're used around here on houses built pre '90s they really struggle in the winter, and really anytime outside of our average temps. Basically any temps outside of 40–90 degrees and these heat pumps just can't keep up on older houses which are less insulated and a little leaky. I can walk into a house during the winter and feel within seconds if it's heated via heat pump or a fuel.

Fwiw, I have air source heat pumps on my house, built in 2022 with R15 walls and R30 ceilings and modern windows. We've only seen one winter so far but the second stage has never come on except when I was fiddling with the thermostat.

Air source heat pumps are undeniably more efficient than direct heat but they do have the issue that the lower ambient you want to run them in, the larger the outdoor coil has to be and there's a point it prices you out. The ones we build will run just fine down below 0 but they're industrial and at minimum about 10x the size you'd ever put on a typical house and probably 20x or more the price...

(Each module in this photo is 35 tons)

As for my house, if I was in town I'd have done heat pumps with gas furnace backup but since I'm in the sticks and propane is about 3x the price of natural gas, I did electric backup. If it ever gets so cold that I need it, I have a very efficient wood stove/fireplace that will keep the house warm enough to stay out of the inefficient direct heat stage.

 

[chili_pepper]

built in 2022 with R15 walls and R30 ceilings and modern windows

This makes a massive difference, regardless of the type of heating/cooling system used.

 

[Squatch]

I mean, we still can't raise humans with enough common sense to not just throw trash on the ground as a means of disposal...and there is no "away" in "thrown away", it's just displacement of waste. I live in an area surrounded by waterways, anything that is thrown on the ground will end up in the water. It's not a depressed area yet people (many fairly wealthy) just throw things on the ground and think nothing of it. Bank fishermen leave their bait containers and refuse behind. Pretty basic concept to clean up after yourself, yet we don't do it. Maybe a little off the carbon mark but you probably get where I'm coming from.

I remember when I was about 8 years old, we were rolling down some road in Virginia in my dad's pickup. Summer day, windows down. I opened a candy bar, and a large part of the wrapper flew out the window. My dad had seen this, and pulled over and made me go retrieve it from the grass on the side of the road. To this day, I cannot just throw something out onto the ground, and quite often find myself picking up other people's trash.

 

[chili_pepper]

I cannot just throw something out onto the ground, and quite often find myself picking up other people's trash.

I used to do a lot of kayak paddling, when I was done getting my workout I'd literally fill the footwell and rear hatch with waste pulled from the water and cart it back to shore. People used to look at me funny as I emptied the boat and carted the trash off to the cans at the parks. I carried a dive knife to cut fishing line from the trees along the banks and I still have a massive glass bowl filled with probably less than 1% of the bobbers and lures I pulled out of the waterways I frequented. I'm not knocking fishermen, if you're in a boat and your line gets tied up, it's risky getting close to shore to clean up the line. But the food/drink waste and empty bait containers were another matter (I paddled on a lot of drinking water reservoirs).

It's a conditioned response from how I was raised and taught. I would've had a boot in my ass if my father or grandfather ever caught me littering, even if accidental. Leave no trace. When you leave a place, leave it in as good a shape, if not better, than you found it. It's not hard to do and it has a big impact, but people either don't think or don't care anymore.

 

[Rickyd]

Simply, yes. But in colder climates they're water source heat pumps, not air...so the outside temperature could be 45 or -25 and they don't know the difference because the water is 65 either way. (We call it water but it's really about 35% propylene glycol so it's more like automotive coolant but less toxic).

In those northern climates, the heat pumps pull heat from a main water loop to heat the space, and the refrigeration system heats the water back up. If there's not enough refrigeration heat, the electric water heater kicks in. In summer the heat pumps heat the water and then it's cooled by a dry cooler or an evaporative cooling tower depending on the local situation with respect to mean temperature and humidity conditions and the balance of power vs water cost.

Damn that's a neat way to use a heat pump in colder climates and deal with refrigeration waste heat at the same time.

 

[BlueC]

(Each module in this photo is 35 tons)
View attachment 475871

Is that a gas fueled heater hanging up in the corner of a shop building massive heat pumps?

As for my house, if I was in town I'd have done heat pumps with gas furnace backup

That's similar to what I plan on doing when the time comes. I'm currently running a split system, central air conditioning & fuel oil furnace, both of which are over 40 years old. When the air unit finally craps, I'll be installing a heat pump to handle the A/C and light heat, with the fuel oil furnace to take over below a certain temp, probably 40ish degrees.

 

[freedom_in_4low]

Is that a gas fueled heater hanging up in the corner of a shop building massive heat pumps?

Indeed it is. Oklahoma is very friendly to natural gas, but if NYC wants heat pumps we're happy to build some for them.

 

[Rickyd]

Is that a gas fueled heater hanging up in the corner of a shop building massive heat pumps?



That's similar to what I plan on doing when the time comes. I'm currently running a split system, central air conditioning & fuel oil furnace, both of which are over 40 years old. When the air unit finally craps, I'll be installing a heat pump to handle the A/C and light heat, with the fuel oil furnace to take over below a certain temp, probably 40ish degrees.

Where I'm at it only goes down to around 15* or so. Heat pumps work well here. I have a multi zone heat pump and a wood stove. Getting rid of a propane central heat system saves 200$ a month in gas bills during the coldest months