High travel, high clearance & high octane, a streetable adventure LJ story

3) The steering is scary. @mrblaine is helping walk me through dialing in the steering and he described it best as "non-linear steering response". It's not so much an issue driving slow but on faster roads with turns is when this issue really rears it's head. What's happening is that when I turn the steering wheel a little bit for the turn the Jeep only turns slightly, I then turn even more to try and get the steering response I want, and then slightly more, but then the weight transfers to the outside tire and the Jeep quickly turns way more than I'm expecting. It all happens in a fraction of a second and has had me pointed into the oncoming lane more than once. Which then results in me jerking the steering wheel in the opposite direction and veering right and left in my lane during a simple curve in the road. In my next update I'll post about how I'm going to correct this issue.
Click to expand...

The issue with my steering is that it is unable to achieve Ackermann. This is something that I've been aware of since day 1 of the build and I knew I'd have to dial in the steering.

Thankfully today was a nice sunny day with 50F weather which made for a good day of getting out of the Jeep a bunch of times and dialing in the steering on the side of the road with a couple of trips back to the garage.

To dial in the steering I started by centering the steering wheel. Because the steering stops are perfectly set up so the knuckles, hydro, and steering box stops all hit at the same time at ride height the only way to center the steering wheel is to adjust the ride height. Ride height is adjusted by moving the preload nuts on the coilovers up or down.

20200301_front-coilover-preload-nuts.jpg


I brought the toe to 0 (meaning straight; no toe in or out).

I then went for a drive on a paved dry road with lots of turns to establish a baseline. The handling was horrible due to the non-linear steering response. It was so bad I was honestly worried it wouldn't be fixable.

To get the steering to be good, I started by placing a mark on the top of the tie rod and rotated the tie rod half a turn of toe out at a time. As toe out increased the steering response became more linear. I kept increasing toe out until the steering became vague on center (similar to a dead spot I had trouble going straight but turns were fine) and then I turned the tie rod back half a turn to the sweet spot.

20200301_tie-rod.jpg


There was a point where I could tell that I was steering by reacting to the road because I had muscle memory from how it handled in the morning even though it was starting to handle better. I've had this Jeep since stock and I think I have so much muscle memory of how it's handled over the years. So I stopped at a gas station for a little snack and a break so I could approach the Jeep with fresh eyes again.

The sweet spot wasn't quite good enough to feel comfortable handing the keys over to Mrs Tox for an unbiased opinion so I dialed in more caster angle by shortening the upper control arm 2 rotations and went through the process again of finding the sweet spot. Pinion angle is nice but isn't a huge concern since I have locking hubs.

I got the steering dialed in to the point where I could drive and enjoy music without having constant vigilance micromanaging the steering. I found that instead of pushing myself to drive the speed limit I was now driving faster naturally because I had confidence in the steering and it was easy. I'm not sure that I found the perfect sweet spot yet because the suspension is so firm that anytime there's a bump in the road I was thrown around and I would bump the steering wheel. I'm actually pretty sore from driving all day on paved roads.

One last thing, something that I had done last month is I sent my steering box to PSC to swap out the torsion bar with their firmer .210 bar. This helped slow steering response and make high speed driving better.

It took all morning and afternoon to go through this process and was well worth the effort since my Jeep is actually starting to be fun to drive — which I'm thankful for after putting so much hard work into it! Next up is dialing in the suspension!
 
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toximus said:
The issue with my steering is that it is unable to achieve Ackermann. This is something that I've been aware of since day 1 of the build and I knew I'd have to dial in the steering.

Thankfully today was a nice sunny day with 50F weather which made for a good day of getting out of the Jeep a bunch of times and dialing in the steering on the side of the road with a couple of trips back to the garage.

To dial in the steering I started by centering the steering wheel. Because the steering stops are perfectly set up so the knuckles, hydro, and steering box stops all hit at the same time at ride height the only way to center the steering wheel is to adjust the ride height. Ride height is adjusted by moving the preload nuts on the coilovers up or down.

View attachment 143476

I brought the toe to 0 (meaning straight; no toe in or out).

I then went for a drive on a paved dry road with lots of turns to establish a baseline. The handling was horrible due to the non-linear steering response. It was so bad I was honestly worried it wouldn't be fixable.

To get the steering to be good, I started by placing a mark on the top of the tie rod and rotated the tie rod half a turn of toe out at a time. As toe out increased the steering response became more linear. I kept increasing toe out until the steering became vague on center (similar to a dead spot I had trouble going straight but turns were fine) and then I turned the tie rod back half a turn to the sweet spot.

View attachment 143477

There was a point where I could tell that I was steering by reacting to the road because I had muscle memory from how it handled in the morning even though it was starting to handle better. I've had this Jeep since stock and I think I have so much muscle memory of how it's handled over the years. So I stopped at a gas station for a little snack and a break so I could approach the Jeep with fresh eyes again.

The sweet spot wasn't quite good enough to feel comfortable handing the keys over to Mrs Tox for an unbiased opinion so I dialed in more caster angle by shortening the upper control arm 2 rotations and went through the process again of finding the sweet spot. Pinion angle is nice but isn't a huge concern since I have locking hubs.

I got the steering dialed in to the point where I could drive and enjoy music without having constant vigilance micromanaging the steering. I found that instead of pushing myself to drive the speed limit I was now driving faster naturally because I had confidence in the steering and it was easy. I'm not sure that I found the perfect sweet spot yet because the suspension is so firm that anytime there's a bump in the road I was thrown around and I would bump the steering wheel. I'm actually pretty sore from driving all day on paved roads.

One last thing, something that I had done last month is I sent my steering box to PSC to swap out the torsion bar with their firmer .210 bar. This helped slow steering response and make high speed driving better.

It took all morning and afternoon to go through this process and was well worth the effort since my Jeep is actually starting to be fun to drive — which I'm thankful for after putting so much hard work into it! Next up is dialing in the suspension!
Click to expand...

To help those following along, the firmer T-bar doesn't slow response exactly. It provides a heavier steering feel at the steering wheel to slow down steering input from the driver which in turn will slow down steering response. More along the lines of manual steering that we see in small sports cars that have a heavier steering feel on the highway.

Others may not understand that Ackermann is generally required to achieve steering that causes the front tires to move around a turn at different radii since one is turning in a smaller circle than the other one. Ackermann creates proportional radii no matter the steering angle.
 
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mrblaine said:
To help those following along, the firmer T-bar doesn't slow response exactly. It provides a heavier steering feel at the steering wheel to slow down steering input from the driver which in turn will slow down steering response. More along the lines of manual steering that we see in small sports cars that have a heavier steering feel on the highway.
Click to expand...

Thanks for expanding on that. You're always welcome to correct or add to what I'm saying.

mrblaine said:
Others may not understand that Ackermann is generally required to achieve steering that causes the front tires to move around a turn at different radii since one is turning in a smaller circle than the other one. Ackermann creates proportional radii no matter the steering angle.
Click to expand...

This video helped me understand in a simply way without getting overly complex:

 
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toximus said:
Thanks for expanding on that. You're always welcome to correct or add to what I'm saying.



This video helped me understand in a simply way without getting overly complex:

Click to expand...
Thanks for that video. The principles described also explain why having a front locker engaged generates so much understeer and why the rear doesn't impact steering as much.
 
toximus said:
  • Tire size that I won't change from.
  • Belly height.
  • Wheelbase.
Click to expand...
This may need a different thread, but you can some cliff notes as to this..
I want to build for 35"
Belly? TT is in plan.
Wheel base: Stock TJ, can I push them out and inch or so? (Genright tank with cutout)
I'll stop there before I derail anything, I've been looking at this and trying to make sure I'm covering everything...ish.

*** I think I get it after looking at it written down. Can't stretch without cutting fender wells.
 
Last edited:
S.McArthur said:
This may need a different thread, but you can some cliff notes as to this..
I want to build for 35"
Belly? TT is in plan.
Wheel base: Stock TJ, can I push them out and inch or so? (Genright tank with cutout)
I'll stop there before I derail anything, I've been looking at this and trying to make sure I'm covering everything...ish.
Click to expand...

Understand the 90/10 rule: 10% of the work will gain you 90% of the results, the remaining 90% of the work will gain you 10% of the results. Know before you start how far you want to go so you can budget time and money appropriately. My khaki TJ on 35s was built to that 90% and is very capable. I have no plans to go the remaining 10% on that build.

My other advice is do dream as if you don't currently own a Jeep. Dreaming around past decisions you wouldn't make again is only going to lead to a bad build. You can always sell your Jeep or part it out. Also don't limit yourself by deciding before you dream that you can't weld or that you don't want to drill holes or cut the body. If you absolutely must live with some past decisions or limitations, figure out what they are AFTER you're done dreaming so you can still get as close to your dream as possible.

35s are a fun tire size. Only you can decide if they're right for the trails you want to go on. Same for belly height and wheelbase. I personally have had the most fun on 33s but that also has to do with the trails I was running at the time — 35s on those same trails wasn't as much fun. It looks like you're on 33s right now so 35s are going to be way more capable than what you have right now pretty much regardless of what else you do because you'll be hanging up the belly and bumpers on way less stuff. So I don't have much to comment on tires aside from don't go with needlessly heavy tires.

For the belly height you need to decide on roughly the height you want (and depending on your steering, you're going to have to commit to that height once you start building). Again, look at what works where you want to go and talk to people who'd know. How much lift and tuck do you need to do to get there? That'll help you fill in other questions like if it's obtainable with off the shelf mods or if you need to fabricate them yourself. Are TJ springs available for the height you want or do you need coilovers?

Adding an inch of wheelbase isn't going to net you much no matter where you wheel imho. You're going to need to gain 5"+ to start noticing a difference. Ideal wheelbase is different for different areas. 98-100ish seems to be a sweet spot for 35s but includes it's own compromises so understand those compromises before setting out to build for that. A very capable TJ can be built on 35s with the stock wheelbase too. Just know before you start where you want to spend the effort. I also am not a fan of Genright's tanks.

While you're still in the dreaming stage of the build, don't choose belly height or wheelbase because of stability or safety (within reason anyway). There's ways to make a taller Jeep stable.

The TJ rear driveshaft is very short. That's going to be a challenging factor especially after you tuck in how much travel you can get out of it before the driveshaft binds (there are solutions, but they all come with their own compromises). 11" of travel is very doable, anything more and you need to put it into more uptravel. If you have the NP231 consider using JBConversions super short SYE to get as much length as possible.

Other places to gain are cutting weight where you can, flipping the tie rod to over the knuckle, raising body mounts, you can cheat clearance with a body lift, and I'm sure you'll find many more to think about.
 
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After @DustinfromOhio and @dbbd1 asked in another thread how well my CB radio worked being inside the top I decided to tune it and give some real numbers. Well, the SWR was so high that I checked if I had wires shorting and it turns out that the radio unit is bad. Cobra asked me to send it in for warranty and I should have the unit back in 1-2 weeks. Once it comes back hopefully my SWR numbers will be in a good range.

20200303_cleaning-grounds.jpg


20200304_high-swr.jpg


The remote fill cap came in last night after waiting since December for it to arrive from Newton Equipment in England. It looks amazing and really is going to be a final piece to the puzzle of this build. Unfortunately I got sent the wrong filler neck hose so the project is going to have to be held off a little longer until the correct one arrives (thankfully it's stocked in America). Here is a preview of what it'll look like:

20200304_filler-mockup-closed.jpg


20200304_filler-mockup-open.jpg
 
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I've been climbing into the back to fill the fuel cell with gas cans and at the station and it's become a pain. Before I do any real traveling I need to move the filler to the outside since I seem to be getting between 10-13mpg (which equates to stopping at the gas station every 3 hours).

My plan is to mount the gas cap through the soft top and clamp the material to prevent tears and leaks. I'll rig up a way to secure it to the soft top frame so that the weight doesn't pull on the top. If I take the top off, the entire remote filler neck can be removed with the top and the gas cap can be used on the fuel cell.

I mocked up the new hose to the fuel cell to see what I'm dealing with. I placed a string to show where the soft top panel lays.

20200310_remote-filler-mockup.jpg


I then mocked up the gas cap on the filler neck and went to every gas station within a 30 mile radius to see how well it'll work.

I learned a lot of new things about gas pump nozzles:

1) Nozzles have a spring and/or "hooked ring" to snag onto the vehicle filler neck so they won't fall out.
2) The nozzles had between 5-1/2" and 7-1/2" of insertable length.
3) It doesn't matter how long the nozzle is, it's all about retention.
4) CNEX uses a finer spring on their nozzles and has the worst retention.
5) The nozzles angle upward into the hose which can cause fuel to flow back out.
6) Flipping the nozzle upside down for better retention doesn't work since it can rotated back and fall out.
7) Some nozzles have an additional hole 1" from the tip that gas also flows out of.

This is the typical nozzle:

20200310_nozzle-retention.jpg


20200310_nozzle-features.jpg


(I know other regions have different styles and shapes of nozzles, but this is all I have access to for testing. Hopefully what works well here will work well other places.)

I don't want to hold the nozzle the entire time it's filling due to time and it'll freeze your hands off in the winter. I also don't want to run any risks of the nozzle falling out and spraying everywhere. So I came up with a few ideas and ordered more parts:

1) Place a 45* angled hose right off the gas cap so the nozzle has something to bump into at the top and will hold the nozzle at a shallower angle. This also will also prevent horizontal section of the hose near the cap which fuel could flow back out of. If this works, it's my first choice and the easiest to do.
2) Use a filler neck mounting bowl (such as the stock TJ uses) to angle the neck down. This is my least favorite choice because it'll take up more physical space on the soft top and be more complex to install.
3) Another thing I may need to do is neck the hose down to 7/8" near the cap to better grab the unleaded fuel nozzle. Hopefully I can avoid this since I want to be able to use dump cans.
 
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are you going through the fabric or the vinyl?
the bitch is the 10+ lbs. hanging off your setup while it fills.

is there a smaller diameter on the end of the cap base? if you could find a rubber filler tube about 9-12" and just a shallow 30-45* bend that might fit tight up onto it and still fit inside the tube you have, that would constrict your diameter as well as stiffen up the end and your flow outlet is now down well inside.

something like this.

filler.PNG
 
someguysjeep said:
are you going through the fabric or the vinyl?
Click to expand...

Preferably the fabric, most likely the vinyl window.

someguysjeep said:
the bitch is the 10+ lbs. hanging off your setup while it fills.
Click to expand...

The weight will be on the soft top frame to prevent damage to the panel.

someguysjeep said:
is there a smaller diameter on the end of the cap base? if you could find a rubber filler tube about 9-12" and just a shallow 30-45* bend that might fit tight up onto it and still fit inside the tube you have, that would constrict your diameter as well as stiffen up the end and your flow outlet is now down well inside.
Click to expand...

I'm having a hard time visualizing what you're saying.
 
tube within a tube. if it would hold on to the base of the cap, it looks tapered to me but could be funky lighting

filler2.PNG
 
I know California is like a bad word to some. Our nozzles have a large rubber boot or stopper at that first ridge so they might not fit in as far. I don't know if that's important or not. Plenty of good pictures on the internet if you look for VST nozzles. I only post because you might someday decide to do the Rubicon and it might be useful to consider? There is also a small possibility the new CA style nozzles will appear in your neighborhood at some point.

I can imagine you got some strange looks hopping into the back seat with the filler nozzle.
 
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