Jeep Wrangler X illegally sold

[Arthurius]

Friend passed away, and you tried to remove his name from the Jeep title and get a new title in your name only??

Someone passed away and their family successfully liquidated an asset without notifying (orpaying off) a part-owner.

Not trying to start a bickering war here, but that is the other side of this coin, and it is just as damning as your phrase I quoted. I think OP may have more legal standing than the deceased's family seeing as they in fact have now sold the Jeep. They easily opened themselves up to a lawsuit doing that.

Like you say though, 100% a civil case

 

[Link]

OP has a mess on his hands. Totally civil though. It would be curious to know why there were two unrelated by marriage people on a title. Not an illegal situation but definitely an odd situation. Sounds like the deceased guy's estate had an interest in the vehicle as well as the OP. Most likely, he won't get the Jeep back but should be able to get half the value from the family. There might be forgery charges on the family members but the OP would have to locate the original title from the state or the new purchaser. Good luck with that. It's possible but not likely. I don't know how long the state keeps the signed titles.

Depends on when this happened but the Jeep may have already been titled in FL or some other state but not hit the system yet. Run a Carfax. If no recent action on it, run it again every week.

 

[WVJeep304]

One major key here will be exact wording on the title:

John Doe AND Jim Doe vs John Doe OR Jim Doe.

If it was "AND", the family must have broken the law and forged OP's name. If it was "OR", while dirty, not necessarily illegal. At that point, burden of proof would be on OP to prove he/she had a right to the vehicle outside of the estate of the deceased. 100% a civil matter as far as OP is concerned. Even if charges are brought against the family, that alone doesn't make OP whole.

 

[AndyA]

If a signature was forged on a State document I bet that is a criminal matter. Andy

 

[TheBoogieman]

My stepdad was on my title when he died at 58. I had to take his death certificate to DMV to get a new title in my name.

 

[txbemis69]

FIFY.

this ole boy is always packing. 24/7!

 

[Mr. Bills]

If a signature was forged on a State document I bet that is a criminal matter. Andy

Forgery can be civil or criminal, depending upon the specific facts.

@Eamethyst has provided a one-sided, self-serving story that leaves out all inconvenient facts and is filled with legal conclusions.

Many of the responses here are also filled with legal conclusions based upon incomplete facts and an incomplete understanding of the law.

The bottom line is that there is no way anyone who hears @Eamethyst's story can determine from the facts provided whether or not there was any actionable criminal activity in addition to what appears to be an ordinary civil dispute between the parties.

 

[Eamethyst]

Someone passed away and their family successfully liquidated an asset without notifying (orpaying off) a part-owner.

Not trying to start a bickering war here, but that is the other side of this coin, and it is just as damning as your phrase I quoted. I think OP may have more legal standing than the deceased's family seeing as they in fact have now sold the Jeep. They easily opened themselves up to a lawsuit doing that.

Like you say though, 100% a civil case

Every state has different laws on property that is shared.

My stepdad was on my title when he died at 58. I had to take his death certificate to DMV to get a new title in my name.

I have the death certificate. The jeep is solely in name since he passed.

 

[Eamethyst]

Someone passed away and their family successfully liquidated an asset without notifying (orpaying off) a part-owner.

Not trying to start a bickering war here, but that is the other side of this coin, and it is just as damning as your phrase I quoted. I think OP may have more legal standing than the deceased's family seeing as they in fact have now sold the Jeep. They easily opened themselves up to a lawsuit doing that.

Like you say though, 100% a civil case

I spoke to the sherriff's department down in Florida. Since my name was forged it is also criminal. Since it's a Wisconsin title, both names state and between each other I am 100% legally responsible for the jeep. The living owner takes responsibility over anyone else.
I found out there is a seller form that Florida requires to sell a vehicle that has an out of state title. It is supposed to be downloaded and printed out for just this reason liability. They did not do it.
I have a case to sue them and press charges. I can flag the vin in WISCONSIN and Florida myself by going through DMV. That is in process. Since I will have a police report that will flag the vin nationally. So whoever purchased my jeep if they haven't titled it yet they will have a problem trying to.

 

[Eamethyst]

One major key here will be exact wording on the title:

John Doe AND Jim Doe vs John Doe OR Jim Doe.

If it was "AND", the family must have broken the law and forged OP's name. If it was "OR", while dirty, not necessarily illegal. At that point, burden of proof would be on OP to prove he/she had a right to the vehicle outside of the estate of the deceased. 100% a civil matter as far as OP is concerned. Even if charges are brought against the family, that alone doesn't make OP whole.

I have every right to my jeep. It is mine. I have proof of everything.
It is a Wisconsin title. I am 100% legally responsible for my jeep. Wisconsin law states the living owner is 100% responsible. The title was And not or. The family is not entitled to my jeep. There is not estate either or anything in probate. It is not just civil. A forged name on a title is also criminal. Especially when that title is invalid. Null and void. All of my info has been provided by the Sherriff's department, legal advice. I am following every step they told me to take. They are very deceitful people. I will legally be reimbursed for my jeep.

 

[MikeE024]

Wisconsin law states if there are two people on a title with each other, one dies the other is automatically the responsible party. Even if I had the original title by law I would be legally responsible. His parents would not be entitled. Now in Florida they could be entitled if the Jeep was titled in Florida which it is not. I spoke with civil court, and the sherriff's. Thet both told me remove his name because technically it falls under civil. The sherriff's usually don't get involved in civil. They try not to. They said if I found the Jeep they would get involved. They said remove his name and then I can report it stolen. I don't think the Jeep is in Florida. If it is it can't be titled there. The vin is flagged in Florida.
They have the money to pay me for the Jeep. They should do it. They are not decent people at all. My name was definitely forged on the title because the stepdad stated to me the title was legit it and it was signed. I told him you illegally sold my jeep, signed my name. I didn't sign anything. His response how are you going to prove anything. I said I have the current title and all of the paperwork in my hands. My signature is on file with Wisconsin and in Florida. Since the driver licenses link up in every state, everyone's signature is on file now. One way or another I will end up with a jeep. If I don't get mine back I will get the money from them through the court. You don't want to trade headaches with me. Mine are migraines ha ha.

This sounds like a potential criminal case for forgery and theft. Did you press charges with the police?

When someone purposefully damaged my car years ago while raging because they had a bad day, they had to pay criminal restitution to make me whole. Had they not made me whole, I could have pursued things through civil litigation. That was in NV though and rules vary from state to state.

 

[MikeE024]

I spoke to the sherriff's department down in Florida. Since my name was forged it is also criminal.

Agreed. (possibly forgery and theft)

I have a case to sue them and press charges.

If it were me, I'd start by filing criminal charges. Then I'd go the civil route if I'm not made whole through the criminal process.

They might take a plea deal if charges are brought (and they could be stiff), and that deal may require that they make you whole.

 

[Eamethyst]

OP has a mess on his hands. Totally civil though. It would be curious to know why there were two unrelated by marriage people on a title. Not an illegal situation but definitely an odd situation. Sounds like the deceased guy's estate had an interest in the vehicle as well as the OP. Most likely, he won't get the Jeep back but should be able to get half the value from the family. There might be forgery charges on the family members but the OP would have to locate the original title from the state or the new purchaser. Good luck with that. It's possible but not likely. I don't know how long the state keeps the signed titles.

Depends on when this happened but the Jeep may have already been titled in FL or some other state but not hit the system yet. Run a Carfax. If no recent action on it, run it again every week.

No the Jeep has not been titled in Florida. It can't be when it's flagged. There is not an estate. Nothing in probate either. The recent excuse that I heard is that he owed her money. He owed everyone money. So in her eyes it's okay to take something that does not belong to her because he owed her money. So that's how it works. I can take something of hers since he owed me money. Hmmm. That excuse won't stand up in court. There isn't any documentation of him borrowing money from her. It is also an illegal situation since forgery is involved. Forgery is illegal in every state. There are plenty of people who own properties of all types together that are not married who are on titles together. I already spoke to Wisconsin. The dmv that I deal with there is very helpful. They have provided me with the information for the original title for the police. Titles are kept on file forever. Every state keeps a record of the original title. It's all computerized now. Majority of states offee paper titles and electronic titles to. The original title is null and void. As of yet my jeep is not titled in any state as I have seen. I have ran a Carfax report and others. I have also started contacting each state for a vin lookup. It has not shown up any state except in Wisconsin and titled, registered and plated to me solely. My legal advisory and the sherriff's department have both said it is civil and criminal. They used an invalid title. Forgery is criminal. The signature on that title also makes the title null and void. I am trying to do the right thing by letting who ever purchased my jeep know it was an illegal sale. I don't believe the Jeep is in Florida.

 

[Eamethyst]

This sounds like a potential criminal case for forgery and theft. Did you press charges with the police?

When someone purposefully damaged my car years ago while raging because they had a bad day, they had to pay criminal restitution to make me whole. Had they not made me whole, I could have pursued things through civil litigation. That was in NV though and rules vary from state to state.

You are right. Every state is different. I am in the process of pressing charges and going to court. I don't live in that area. So I have drive down and handle everything. Down that way the court is only open from 7am to noon. The police closes at 4pm for non emergency. I am handling everything. I would like to give a heads up to who purchased my jeep. I am sure they are not aware that it was an illegal sale. If I can get that title from that person to prove it's not my signature on it. Wisconsin is providing me with the title number from the original title. I have the current title and solely in my name.

 

[WVJeep304]

I will legally be reimbursed for my jeep.

The way your reply was typed, I can't tell if you're being defensive or just filling in blanks, but everything you said is in agreement with what I said. With the exception of that last sentence. What I meant by

"Even if charges are brought against the family, that alone doesn't make OP whole."

Is that you can't get blood from a turnip. Just because they are convicted and/or a judge orders them to pay restitution/damages, doesn't mean you'll get your money. I hope for your sake that you do. Due to my job of over 20 years, I'm extremely familiar with the legal process and have experience in situations like this, so I know the challenges and uphill battle you likely have ahead of you. I hope you get some good news soon.

 

[cpwolf]

My stepdad was on my title when he died at 58. I had to take his death certificate to DMV to get a new title in my name.

That's the way it is in Texas. I just tried buying a CJ7, guy said Title was in his dad's name and passed and lost. I went all the way down the rat hole, and at the Austin Regional office, and online, it states if a person is deceased, they will not issue a title, even if 2 names are on it and the other is filing. In TX, you have to provide Death Certificate, Letters Testamentary of Heirs. You cannot get a title without ALL of the legal heirs signing in front of a Notary and releasing. Wisconsin must be different, because you cannot just ignore the legal Heirs to his half of the vehicle. If it was AND, then Wisconsin must be different. Not sure how you got his name removed without proof of a Will or documenting that his Heirs ownership, all of them, and giving it up.

Fitting that I'll point out to you, turns out it was titled in the guy's ex-wife's name. She took out a title loan for $5k in 2019, and then left to California and is married there, and the guy hasn't heard from her since. Titlemax got zero payments ever, so she's probably like "repo it, I don't care". I walked on the situation, because the guy wanted full $, and then me deal with Titlemax apparently, total nonsense, ha.

 

[cpwolf]

I have every right to my jeep. It is mine. I have proof of everything.
It is a Wisconsin title. I am 100% legally responsible for my jeep. Wisconsin law states the living owner is 100% responsible. The title was And not or. The family is not entitled to my jeep. There is not estate either or anything in probate. It is not just civil. A forged name on a title is also criminal. Especially when that title is invalid. Null and void. All of my info has been provided by the Sherriff's department, legal advice. I am following every step they told me to take. They are very deceitful people. I will legally be reimbursed for my jeep.

So this is the Wisconsin DOT web page. Seems similar to TX, how did you get a title that you said had "AND" without getting the Deceased's Legal Representative, his Heirs, to sign? I wish you luck, but if I was out $8k for a Jeep I bought, and this is the question I'd be asking if this mess hit my newly acquired Jeep.

https://wisconsindot.gov/pages/dmv/vehicles/title-plates/surviving.aspx

• If the title lists you “and” the deceased, the surviving co-owner and the deceased’s legal representative must sign the title as the seller. If you are both the co-owner and the deceased’s legal representative you should sign the title twice as the seller.

 

[Link]

No the Jeep has not been titled in Florida. It can't be when it's flagged. There is not an estate. Nothing in probate either. The recent excuse that I heard is that he owed her money. He owed everyone money. So in her eyes it's okay to take something that does not belong to her because he owed her money. So that's how it works. I can take something of hers since he owed me money. Hmmm. That excuse won't stand up in court. There isn't any documentation of him borrowing money from her. It is also an illegal situation since forgery is involved. Forgery is illegal in every state. There are plenty of people who own properties of all types together that are not married who are on titles together. I already spoke to Wisconsin. The dmv that I deal with there is very helpful. They have provided me with the information for the original title for the police. Titles are kept on file forever. Every state keeps a record of the original title. It's all computerized now. Majority of states offee paper titles and electronic titles to. The original title is null and void. As of yet my jeep is not titled in any state as I have seen. I have ran a Carfax report and others. I have also started contacting each state for a vin lookup. It has not shown up any state except in Wisconsin and titled, registered and plated to me solely. My legal advisory and the sherriff's department have both said it is civil and criminal. They used an invalid title. Forgery is criminal. The signature on that title also makes the title null and void. I am trying to do the right thing by letting who ever purchased my jeep know it was an illegal sale. I don't believe the Jeep is in Florida.

You have a very odd way of writing. Makes it tough to follow. Can't really tell if you're asking for advice or came here to tell us what you are going to do.

Sounds like you got it all figured out though so good luck with it.

 

[Apparition]

You have a very odd way of writing. Makes it tough to follow. Can't really tell if you're asking for advice or came here to tell us what you are going to do.

Sounds like you got it all figured out though so good luck with it.

 

[WVJeep304]

So this is the Wisconsin DOT web page. Seems similar to TX, how did you get a title that you said had "AND" without getting the Deceased's Legal Representative, his Heirs, to sign? I wish you luck, but if I was out $8k for a Jeep I bought, and this is the question I'd be asking if this mess hit my newly acquired Jeep.

https://wisconsindot.gov/pages/dmv/vehicles/title-plates/surviving.aspx

• If the title lists you “and” the deceased, the surviving co-owner and the deceased’s legal representative must sign the title as the seller. If you are both the co-owner and the deceased’s legal representative you should sign the title twice as the seller.

The way I understood what he said somewhere in this thread (or I guess I could have imagined it) is that he worked with his friend prior to his death to change the title to his (OP's) name only shortly before he died. The deceased's family found the old title with both names and sold the jeep with that.