Locker advice and re-gearing

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ASA

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Hi, new member who needs some advice.
I know this topic is been discussed a lot, but my questions are based on the fact that I never found a topic that talks about my situation exactly.
I own a 97 TJ with UAE spec, ax-15/ dana 30 front with Dana 44 in the back, 3.55, 33s on 2.5-3 inch lift.
planning to do a 4.56 ring and pinion, here is my issue, I use my tj only lightly on the highway or in town, mainly it is driven in the dunes, since i will re-gear i like the idea of having a lunchbox locker or LSD since I won’t be able to reuse the carriers I have already, dunning is mostly done in 1-2-3 rd gears depending on type of the dunes, i don’t know if I should go with a front-rear lsd or front rear lunchbox lockers or a mix of both, and what parts will I need other than ring and pinion with a master install kit.
i have to order every thing from the states and I don’t want to miss a part then waiting for another month to get it, your help is much appreciate.
 
Can you get thick gears? That would eliminate the need for a carrier change out. If you are set on installing some sort of traction device(s), I would add a selectable locker in the rear if you can afford it. A LSD would be good I assume, but my experience in the sand is darn near zero. Since you don't get snow and ice in UAE, I would think a lunchbox locker up front would be good.
 
hosejockey61 said:
Can you get thick gears? That would eliminate the need for a carrier change out. If you are set on installing some sort of traction device(s), I would add a selectable locker in the rear if you can afford it. A LSD would be good I assume, but my experience in the sand is darn near zero. Since you don't get snow and ice in UAE, I would think a lunchbox locker up front would be good.
Click to expand...

i thought of a thicker gears, still thinking of keeping the front open and a getting an lsd in the rear ( factory set up - very nice in the dunes for momentum speed and traction). The reason am asking is my concern over higher speed we use dunning, un certain steering behavior on higher speeds might be a problem not like slow crawling, e locker is out of question for 2 reasons:
1- price
2- driving in the dunes needs momentum and speed, full E locker is good when the car is stuck, but a full engaged locker effects driving behavior badly as speed increases.
 
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Matt with Matt's Offroad Recovery, who spends a lot of the time in the sand, prefers a LSD in the rear and usually has a full time locker in the front with hubs...but I am sure a selectable one would be fine. I'm running an Eaton e-locker and love it.

Since you're considering regearing why not do 35s? A bigger tire aired down gives you just that much more contact patch in the sand.

I too have a 4.0 and AX15 and I regeared to 4.88s with 33s planning on doing 35s. The 4.88s are perfect for the Oregon mountains and I kind of wish I had done 5.13s...the 4.88s might be perfect for you and 35s.

-Mac
 
ASA said:
Hi, new member who needs some advice.
I know this topic is been discussed a lot, but my questions are based on the fact that I never found a topic that talks about my situation exactly.
I own a 97 TJ with UAE spec, ax-15/ dana 30 front with Dana 44 in the back, 3.55, 33s on 2.5-3 inch lift.
planning to do a 4.56 ring and pinion, here is my issue, I use my tj only lightly on the highway or in town, mainly it is driven in the dunes, since i will re-gear i like the idea of having a lunchbox locker or LSD since I won’t be able to reuse the carriers I have already, dunning is mostly done in 1-2-3 rd gears depending on type of the dunes, i don’t know if I should go with a front-rear lsd or front rear lunchbox lockers or a mix of both, and what parts will I need other than ring and pinion with a master install kit.
i have to order every thing from the states and I don’t want to miss a part then waiting for another month to get it, your help is much appreciate.
Click to expand...

ASA said:
i thought of a thicker gears, still thinking of keeping the front open and a getting an lsd in the rear ( factory set up - very nice in the dunes for momentum speed and traction). The reason am asking is my concern over higher speed we use dunning, un certain steering behavior on higher speeds might be a problem not like slow crawling, e locker is out of question for 2 reasons:
1- price
2- driving in the dunes needs momentum and speed, full E locker is good when the car is stuck, but a full engaged locker effects driving behavior badly as speed increases.
Click to expand...

You sure about that last sentence? Seems like every 4x4 rig I've seen built specifically for dunes - be it slow-speed stuff (e.g. Camel Trophy Defenders) or higher-speed dune running/carving has dual lockers of some sort, or in some cases, a spool in the rear and locker in front.

Successful dune running is mainly a product of flotation and vehicle speed. Assuming your Jeep has enough power to tackle the hills you're intending to, if I were building a dune-specific rig I'd narrow down my needs as follows:
  • If wheel-speed was important (or alternatively, where wheel SPIN could be detrimental), it would have a spool in the back and a selectable locker in the front.
  • If wheel speed was not critical or if some wheel spin isn't an issue, say for something like multi-purpose, beach-fishing rig, I would likely run a TruTrac in the rear and selectable locker in front.
I love LSDs (especially TruTracs) in some instances where they are advantageous or in a mostly street driven rig, but the differences in how a locker manages torque vs. a LSD seems like they would still be advantageous in the sand dunes, particularly during the times when you may need to shift the transmission and temporarily remove torque input from the driveline.

For gearing, on 33"s and an AX-15, I'd go 4.88's for sure. I'd probably be inclined to go 5.13's and plan for 35"s.

Here's how most of the Jeeps and 4x4's I've seen at Glamis are set up: https://www.motortrend.com/features/sand-and-dune-cj-7/
 
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macleanflood said:
Matt with Matt's Offroad Recovery, who spends a lot of the time in the sand, prefers a LSD in the rear and usually has a full time locker in the front with hubs...but I am sure a selectable one would be fine. I'm running an Eaton e-locker and love it.

Since you're considering regearing why not do 35s? A bigger tire aired down gives you just that much more contact patch in the sand.

I too have a 4.0 and AX15 and I regeared to 4.88s with 33s planning on doing 35s. The 4.88s are perfect for the Oregon mountains and I kind of wish I had done 5.13s...the 4.88s might be perfect for you and 35s.

-Mac
Click to expand...

i think the 33s are plentry for the dunes, once aired down to 8-9 psi it’s a lot of traction for my driving style, another is I don’t have enough power to run 35s comfortably even with regear.
 
pc1p said:
You sure about that last sentence? Seems like every 4x4 rig I've seen built specifically for dunes - be it slow-speed stuff (e.g. Camel Trophy Defenders) or higher-speed dune running/carving has dual lockers of some sort, or in some cases, a spool in the rear and locker in front.

Successful dune running is mainly a product of flotation and vehicle speed. Assuming your Jeep has enough power to tackle the hills you're intending to, if I were building a dune-specific rig I'd narrow down my needs as follows:
  • If wheel-speed was important (or alternatively, where wheel SPIN could be detrimental), it would have a spool in the back and a selectable locker in the front.
  • If wheel speed was not critical or if some wheel spin isn't an issue, say for something like multi-purpose, beach-fishing rig, I would likely run a TruTrac in the rear and selectable locker in front.
I love LSDs (especially TruTracs) in some instances where they are advantageous or in a mostly street driven rig, but the differences in how a locker manages torque vs. a LSD seems like they would still be advantageous in the sand dunes, particularly during the times when you may need to shift the transmission and temporarily remove torque input from the driveline.

For gearing, on 33"s and an AX-15, I'd go 4.88's for sure. I'd probably be inclined to go 5.13's and plan for 35"s.

Here's how most of the Jeeps and 4x4's I've seen at Glamis are
Click to expand...
i Believe that a locker is the ultimate safer when you get stuck, am not against it, if I had a heavy vehicle there will be no question that it’s a must. That’s said, I believe that a lot of old OEM cars have them as a they design their cars for multi environments, you mentioned camel trophy where they race on different type of terrain from mud to sand rock crawling, I had a oem lockers on many of my previous cars ( patrols - land cruisers ).
one of the issues we face when we use front lockers all the time when Dunning was turnning on the point; and bad steering behavior as speed increases. Again, this applies only to the area we ride in, and the way we ride.
he is an old video of some friends driving one of the easiest routes to the big hill, on skill level, this route is 4 out of 10 compared to more advance routes we drive on, you can see that they hardly stop, and it’s not a slow driving, hence we like LSDs More in our riding group.


here is another view of part of the area ( called LIWA )
 
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ASA said:
i Believe that a locker is the ultimate safer when you get stuck, am not against it, if I had a heavy vehicle there will be no question that it’s a must. That’s said, I believe that a lot of old OEM cars have them as a they design their cars for multi environments, you mentioned camel trophy where they race on different type of terrain from mud to sand rock crawling, I had a oem lockers on many of my previous cars ( patrols - land cruisers ).
one of the issues we face when we use front lockers all the time when Dunning was turnning on the point; and bad steering behavior as speed increases. Again, this applies only to the area we ride in, and the way we ride.
he is an old video of some friends driving one of the easiest routes to the big hill, on skill level, this route is 4 out of 10 compared to more advance routes we drive on, you can see that they hardly stop, and it’s not a slow driving, hence we like LSDs More in our riding group.


here is another view of part of the area ( called LIWA )
Click to expand...

OK - That’s awesome. But what’s with the horn?

🙂

A set of paddle tires and I’m all over that! Thanks for sharing the video..
 
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Looks sooo fun….Ever run into camels out there?
 
Wow, looks fun! My (uninformed) thoughts are:
1) Need wheelspin (horsepower) and paddles (like @NashvilleTJ said)
2) Front helical LSD (e.g. Eaton trutrac) and rear selectable locker (maybe reverse of this like MORR says)
3) I want to do that😍. I'm going to try the dunes here in Oregon.
 
Either LSD or selectable lockers. Lunchbox lockers suck. Go much lower in heating than you would think. Sand robs a lot of power.
 
ASA said:
i Believe that a locker is the ultimate safer when you get stuck, am not against it, if I had a heavy vehicle there will be no question that it’s a must. That’s said, I believe that a lot of old OEM cars have them as a they design their cars for multi environments, you mentioned camel trophy where they race on different type of terrain from mud to sand rock crawling, I had a oem lockers on many of my previous cars ( patrols - land cruisers ).
one of the issues we face when we use front lockers all the time when Dunning was turnning on the point; and bad steering behavior as speed increases. Again, this applies only to the area we ride in, and the way we ride.
he is an old video of some friends driving one of the easiest routes to the big hill, on skill level, this route is 4 out of 10 compared to more advance routes we drive on, you can see that they hardly stop, and it’s not a slow driving, hence we like LSDs More in our riding group.


here is another view of part of the area ( called LIWA )
Click to expand...

A front locker doesn’t affect turn radius. The rear does by pushing the vehicle straight ahead. For that environment I’d want

231 TCase
Automatic transmission
Front locker
Rear LSD
 
JMT said:
A front locker doesn’t affect turn radius. The rear does by pushing the vehicle straight ahead. For that environment I’d want

231 TCase
Automatic transmission
Front locker
Rear LSD
Click to expand...

To be clear, I've never experienced this effect in my limited time at Glamis. The sand is so soft that any rear "push" is lost in the sand itself as lateral movement... Again, not a lot of experience there but it was on multiple rigs (and quads with solid rear axles) over multiple weekends, and never once felt like the rear was pushing us through turns.
 
ASA said:
i Believe that a locker is the ultimate safer when you get stuck, am not against it, if I had a heavy vehicle there will be no question that it’s a must. That’s said, I believe that a lot of old OEM cars have them as a they design their cars for multi environments, you mentioned camel trophy where they race on different type of terrain from mud to sand rock crawling, I had a oem lockers on many of my previous cars ( patrols - land cruisers ).
one of the issues we face when we use front lockers all the time when Dunning was turnning on the point; and bad steering behavior as speed increases. Again, this applies only to the area we ride in, and the way we ride.
he is an old video of some friends driving one of the easiest routes to the big hill, on skill level, this route is 4 out of 10 compared to more advance routes we drive on, you can see that they hardly stop, and it’s not a slow driving, hence we like LSDs More in our riding group.
Click to expand...
I've been to Pismo and El Golfo, but only with ATVs. I've been to Glamis a few times (with my 450R alongside friends who have brought their sand rails, Jeeps, 4x4's, UTVs, etc). Every person I met and talked to that was running the bigger hills (up-and-over or carving them) without paddle tires were running lockers (either auto lockers or selectables turned on). The videos you shared are awesome and they seem very similar to the dune running areas in the U.S. - some examples:

Glamis:

Pismo:

Silver Lake:

Sand Hollow:
(at about the 8 min mark, the guy is playing around in 2wd with rear locker on)

El Golfo (Rocky Point):

Personally, I have not seen people have any issue with either a selectable locker or auto locker in the front in the dunes. From what I saw and what I experienced first hand, there wasn't any appreciable difference between the rigs with lockers and the ones without (in terms of handling or turning radius). I don't know how much actual hill "carving" you intend to do (particularly with 190hp), but if you have a preference already (which it sounds like you do), why not just go with what you're comfortable with??

Here's a good example as to why everyone I know runs a lockers in the rear:

And another good example as to why I would run lockers in a dune rig:

I would absolutely reconsider your 4.56 ratio choice for 33"s however - you'll be undergeared for typical off-roading and especially so when dune running!
 
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Having tried deep sand with nothing but a LSD, both a Truetrac and my present Rubicon's rear LSD, neither did well. I'd go for a locker for sand, about the only situation I can think of not good for a locker is on an icy surface.
 
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Thanks all for the great help.
Am going with a 4.88 with a selectable locker front and trutracks rear.
The plan is :
Yukon 4.88 ring and pinion with a master rebuild kit.
Rear trutracks
Front e locker
Will I need any other parts?
Any recommendations who got best deal for tj owners?
 
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