Mid Arm Lift Suggestions

[mrblaine]

Shocks determine the flex. Sway bars can effect how well the tires stay planted. Changing the arm mounts is addressing a more abstract problem of how the suspension behaves under load. This problem isn't happening at lower lift heights while simply rolling over twisted terrain.

Before mid arms, I would first encourage a well detailed short arm, a raised belly, Antirock and relocated shock mounts for longer travel and decent valving. The overall benefits are far greater. Then if the Jeep is experiencing odd behaviors during steep climbs, then you may want to start looking at moving the arms.

I’m excited to hear this one from @mrblaine and what his thoughts are on mid arm versus the suggested well detailed short arm setup.


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I agree with our friend from Colorado. I would start with some double adjustable arms, preferably with JJ's, dial in the steering, toss in the AR with the .850 bar, extend the rear links effectively, raise the belly skid, and then spend some time learning what it does and doesn't do.

The mid arm is designed for those who are working their short arms at maximum effort and need the suspension change to take it to the next level on at least 33's, preferably 35's. When you can outdrive a well appointed well dialed in short arm set up, then move to the mid arms, outboarded well tuned shocks and at that point, you're looking at capabilities that most won't ever exceed.

 

[jjvw]

Regardless of any value the mids may give someone, they should not be installed on a TJ that does not have a raised t case skid. The rear frame brackets are physically incompatible with the stock skid. Also, the rear upper spring seats need to be relocated so that the bump stops line up again. These are both loaded statements.

 

[mrblaine]

I have a Savvy mid-arm on mine. Did I solve anything by installing it? Hell no. However, in all fairness, I was simply trying to build mine to take on almost any terrain I might ever run across, so I really did it not just because I could, but because I wanted something that was proven to work, designed by someone who knows their shit, and would be able to take just about anything I threw at it.

There can be no question at all as to whether I "overbuilt"... I did!

You need to take your shocks back to Paul and have the DSC adjuster put on them. Crank the low speed adjusters all the way in and then play with the high speed adjustments for around town. Discuss setting them up a bit lighter than normal to get that semi squishy Cadillac street ride and then crank the high speed up for offroad.

 

[mrblaine]

@Jerry I 100% agree! Which is why the philosophy of the relocated control arms of the mid arm are what theoretically would correct this. The RC lift I currently have has many flaws and only some have surfaced I’m sure. I also forgot to mention that the RC rear track bar impacts the front of the stock fuel tank skid plate. Possibly because of poor design or the inability to adjust the stock upper control arms. When swapping the axles it was also virtually impossible to manually move the control arms, no grease zerks doesn’t help the situation so I disassembled and greased them before reinstalling.


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Not theoretically.

 

[01TJ-Blues]

I agree with our friend from Colorado. I would start with some double adjustable arms, preferably with JJ's, dial in the steering, toss in the AR with the .850 bar, extend the rear links effectively, raise the belly skid, and then spend some time learning what it does and doesn't do.

The mid arm is designed for those who are working their short arms at maximum effort and need the suspension change to take it to the next level on at least 33's, preferably 35's. When you can outdrive a well appointed well dialed in short arm set up, then move to the mid arms, outboarded well tuned shocks and at that point, you're looking at capabilities that most won't ever exceed.

@mrblaine So would one keep the RC lower control arms and piece together the above recommended or would it be better to just go with the complete say Savvy short arm kit with the tuck, 4” springs, matched track bars and control arms?


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[toximus]

@mrblaine So would one keep the RC lower control arms and piece together the above recommended or would it be better to just go with the complete say Savvy short arm kit with the tuck, 4” springs, matched track bars and control arms?


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What kind of ends are on the RE arms you have?

 

[01TJ-Blues]

What kind of ends are on the RE arms you have?

The RC bars have the rubber dampened bushing style. Which I assume is part of why it doesn’t feel like it moves freely especially at extreme angles.


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[toximus]

You need to take your shocks back to Paul and have the DSC adjuster put on them. Crank the low speed adjusters all the way in and then play with the high speed adjustments for around town. Discuss setting them up a bit lighter than normal to get that semi squishy Cadillac street ride and then crank the high speed up for offroad.

Do you think the 2.5s will see similar benefits from a DSC? I'm putting it on my list to talk to Wayne about.

 

[jjvw]

I agree with our friend from Colorado. ....

As someone who stubbornly went about everything absolutely backwards, the work I did to build around the mid arms was more valuable than the arms themselves. The Jeep (and it's driver) still isn't in a place where it honestly "deserves" the arms. Though I do recognize some of what they are doing and really appreciate them. Maybe that helps explain why I don't offer up that I have them more than I do. I need to grow into the arms.

Looking back, the rear outboard with a generic TJ tune was a far more exciting single modification, followed by my half -assed temporary front shock work.

 

[mrblaine]

Do you think the 2.5s will see similar benefits from a DSC? I'm putting it on my list to talk to Wayne about.

I don't know. What I do know is with them on this set of 2.0's I just finished, they solve all of the things about 2.0s that made me never want to own a set. I'm now looking for a set of 14's with the DSC adjusters.

 

[mrblaine]

As someone who stubbornly went about everything absolutely backwards, the work I did to build around the mid arms was more valuable than the arms themselves. The Jeep (and it's driver) still isn't in a place where it honestly "deserves" the arms. Though I do recognize some of what they are doing and really appreciate them. Maybe that helps explain why I don't offer up that I have them more than I do. I need to grow into the arms.

Looking back, the rear outboard with a generic TJ tune was a far more exciting single modification, followed by my half -assed temporary front shock work.

As much as Jerry would like them, I doubt they would show up as more performance for 99% of what he does. They certainly don't improve the ride quality on the street in and of themselves. You need to out driving a well set up short arm to see the difference but once you do, you won't regret it.

 

[jjvw]

As much as Jerry would like them, I doubt they would show up as more performance for 99% of what he does. They certainly don't improve the ride quality on the street in and of themselves. You need to out driving a well set up short arm to see the difference but once you do, you won't regret it.

There is a guy locally who did an axle swap and rebuilt his suspension this winter. He's an extremely good driver with a lousy suspension now made worse. He would very likely benefit from mids, but I'm no where near in a place to talk about these things with him. For now, I watch and try to learn what I can from it all.

 

[jjvw]

You need to take your shocks back to Paul and have the DSC adjuster put on them. Crank the low speed adjusters all the way in and then play with the high speed adjustments for around town. Discuss setting them up a bit lighter than normal to get that semi squishy Cadillac street ride and then crank the high speed up for offroad.

More things I hope to grow into. I need to get the front finished.

 

[01TJ-Blues]

Dumb question. Kind of asked @mrblaine already but maybe someone else can chime in. So my RC loft has adjustable upper control arms, has non adjustable lowers, non adjustable front and rear track bars and the relo bracket for the rear.

What @mrblaine suggested if I’m reading it correct it was to compete the kit with adjustable uppers for the front, and a tummy tuck. What else am I missing? Thinking of updating the springs so I have 4” springs that sit level instead of the factory raked look.


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[mrblaine]

Dumb question. Kind of asked @mrblaine already but maybe someone else can chime in. So my RC loft has adjustable upper control arms, has non adjustable lowers, non adjustable front and rear track bars and the relo bracket for the rear.

What @mrblaine suggested if I’m reading it correct it was to compete the kit with adjustable uppers for the front, and a tummy tuck. What else am I missing? Thinking of updating the springs so I have 4” springs that sit level instead of the factory raked look.


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Do you carry the same amount of gear around with you that you take offroad?

 

[01TJ-Blues]

Do you carry the same amount of gear around with you that you take offroad?

Yes. When camping or transfer sections we drop our coolers and non essential items, everything else is always in the rig.


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[jjvw]

Dumb question. Kind of asked @mrblaine already but maybe someone else can chime in. So my RC loft has adjustable upper control arms, has non adjustable lowers, non adjustable front and rear track bars and the relo bracket for the rear.

What @mrblaine suggested if I’m reading it correct it was to compete the kit with adjustable uppers for the front, and a tummy tuck. What else am I missing? Thinking of updating the springs so I have 4” springs that sit level instead of the factory raked look.


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For what your are describing as an end goal, you want adjustables all around. A good start is to get a solid grasp of what a 4" spring lift requires, followed by the needs of a tummy tuck. Then work towards fitting longer shocks and maximizing what is there.

As a fundamental guiding principle, become very familiar with bump stops, what they do and how to make them do that. If you do this, you can build something very good.

 

[01TJ-Blues]

For what your are describing as an end goal, you want adjustables all around. A good start is to get a solid grasp of what a 4" spring lift requires, followed by the needs of a tummy tuck. Then work towards fitting longer shocks and maximizing what is there.

As a fundamental guiding principle, become very familiar with bump stops, what they do and how to make them do that. If you do this, you can build something very good.

I’m pretty versed on the suspension and setting it up but am no pro by any means. Current setup has bump stops set for example the same way you did yours although it struggles to get there because either the stock arms bind or the RC bushings. Tummy Tuck I want simple for ground clearance, been hung up on Kelly humps too many times with the stock low hanger. All in all I want the suspension to move freer and be more compliant and I don’t know if the bushing style ends or the Johnny Joint style affect this to the degree I am after. The long arms my buddies have for certain flex and move much more free than mine currently. This alone is holding me back from going places they can go.

I don’t want to spend a bunch of cash on the short arm if in the end the mid arm would have been the solution. No issues dropping it on a short arm, just looking for guidance so I make the right decision with the many choices out there.


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[jjvw]

It sounds like bushings aren't doing what you need.

I won't be the one to tell you to do the mid arm because I know you can do 11-12" of shock travel on short arms. Longer arms are not a solution to that problem.

A tummy tuck is a significant improvement. I would encourage anyone who is dragging the middle to move it up higher.

 

[01TJ-Blues]

It sounds like bushings aren't doing what you need.

I won't be the one to tell you to do the mid arm because I know you can do 11-12" of shock travel on short arms. Longer arms are not a solution to that problem.

A tummy tuck is a significant improvement. I would encourage anyone who is dragging the middle to move it up higher.

Also thanks a bunch for the guidance.

I am thinking the short arm will do what I need, appreciate the help with that to this point.

My question is could it REALLY be the bushings? If so my only solution really is to upgrade to either a complete lift or at least Heim style control arms. If you can clarify that for me with some suggestions it would be great.


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