Power upgrades for heavy winching?

[PNW_LJ]

So after putting in a 3rd motor into my M8000, I was starting to look into winch upgrades. Recently I came across a deal on a used 9.5XP.

With my old setup, during winching, the voltmeter would drop fairly quickly and the “Check Gauges” warning would illuminate. This new winch has a max amp pull of 50 amps more, so this problem will be exacerbated.


I’m looking to alleviate the power issues. A new battery is in order for sure, but do I need an AGM and what CCA? Specific brands to look for?

 

[PNW_LJ]

I’m also seeing things like upgraded alternators and battery cables with terms like Big 3 and Big 7. Is all that needed if my factory cables look fine on the outside?

 

[Plumber1]

What are you doing to burn up 3 motors my M8000 is 30+ years old on th original one

 

[zackcj7]

What are you doing to burn up 3 motors my M8000 is 30+ years old on th original one

Yeah, something is not right. I'm betting the voltage issue is a symptom and not the cause

 

[PNW_LJ]

What are you doing to burn up 3 motors my M8000 is 30+ years old on th original one

That doesn’t matter at this point. Rest assured, it wasn’t abused to warrant these failures.

I’m just trying to figure out how to provide the new winch with adequate power.

 

[Blackjack]

Simplest upgrades are good battery, higher output alternator and larger power cables.

 

[PNW_LJ]

Simplest upgrades are good battery, higher output alternator and larger power cables.

Should I be looking at 2 gauge battery cables?

 

[Blackjack]

Should I be looking at 2 gauge battery cables?

Upgrade the alternator output wire to go with the alternator. Convert to military style battery connectors so you can get better mechanical connection at the battery. Lastly I would have winch power cables made specifically to fit your winch install. Going to high quality 2/0 cable is easy to do and you will find it is just as easy to route as the lesser quality 2 gauge that Warn uses.

 

[bucky]

Heat build up kills electric motors because the wire insulation fails.
Put a volt meter on the winch terminal under load. A motor will burn up quickly if there is a drop in voltage. That 6hp motor will draw over 500 amps under load. Upgrade to at least a 2/0 but 3/0 would be better. Keep the cables as short as possible. The battery is what gives you the amps necessary upgrading the alternator helps a little but mainly helps battery recovery. Upgrading to a 750CC amp battery will help. Nothing will work if winch is used for an extended period it just pulls too many amps under long term load.

 

[Rubiconned]

Should I be looking at 2 gauge battery cables?

Welding cables are the best. It's not just the gauge but the number of strands for maximum amps.

 

[Rubiconned]

That doesn’t matter at this point. Rest assured, it wasn’t abused to warrant these failures.

I’m just trying to figure out how to provide the new winch with adequate power.

I assume you are using a snatch block or wheel to cut your load in half?

 

[bucky]

Welding cables are the best. It's not just the gauge but the number of strands for maximum amps.

That’s because current flows along the outside of a conductor. I always had a hard time getting my 1954 Milk Truck to crank. It’s a 6volt positive ground system. I switched the cables to welding cable and it made all the difference

 

[mrblaine]

Welding cables are the best. It's not just the gauge but the number of strands for maximum amps.

Not true now, and not true when the myth started eons ago. We use stranded cable for flexibility, and resistance to breakage from vibration. We don't use it because it has a higher capacity for carrying current and voltage. There is a higher voltage and current drop across stranded versus solid in the same gauge. None of those differences are large enough to be game changers for what we do with DC current, but they do exist.

Put correctly, welding cable is selected generally because it is flexible, durable, cost effective, and of course, generally a larger gauge than what it is replacing.

 

[mrblaine]

So after putting in a 3rd motor into my M8000, I was starting to look into winch upgrades. Recently I came across a deal on a used 9.5XP.

With my old setup, during winching, the voltmeter would drop fairly quickly and the “Check Gauges” warning would illuminate. This new winch has a max amp pull of 50 amps more, so this problem will be exacerbated.


I’m looking to alleviate the power issues. A new battery is in order for sure, but do I need an AGM and what CCA? Specific brands to look for?

I don't know that you NEED an AGM, I prefer them due to the unspillable nature and the fact that they tend to charge faster since there is generally no limit on the inrush current for most of them. They have better discharge rates in general.

The better thing to do would be to alter your recovery practices and always use a snatch block.

That does several things for you. First, it gets more line out so you are using the winch at a higher capacity with more leverage in favor of the winch. The higher capacity through the snatch block also means you are not working it as hard so the current draw is lower. With a lower draw, you are using the electrical system more efficiently which keeps the battery voltage up longer. As the voltage drops, the amperage rises which then drops the voltage faster. The higher current draw and lower voltage means you are overheating the motor and killing it with a quickness.

As suggested, a better alternator will help the battery recover faster. Generally though, you are using amperage out of the battery faster than you can put it back so no matter how you do it, the net result will be a loss of charge in the battery which you will still have to work around and be aware of.

If you suspect you are getting into the +200 amp range on the winch draw, even a high amperage 200 amp alternator won't do that until well above idle, or if you get one that does, you won't like the cost or the install effort. At idle or slightly above, you're likely going to be dumping 100-120 amps back in which is a net loss of 80 amps or so and that won't take long to drop the battery down to some place it shouldn't be.

This isn't a winch motor problem.

 

[PNW_LJ]

I don't know that you NEED an AGM, I prefer them due to the unspillable nature and the fact that they tend to charge faster since there is generally no limit on the inrush current for most of them. They have better discharge rates in general.

The better thing to do would be to alter your recovery practices and always use a snatch block.

That does several things for you. First, it gets more line out so you are using the winch at a higher capacity with more leverage in favor of the winch. The higher capacity through the snatch block also means you are not working it as hard so the current draw is lower. With a lower draw, you are using the electrical system more efficiently which keeps the battery voltage up longer. As the voltage drops, the amperage rises which then drops the voltage faster. The higher current draw and lower voltage means you are overheating the motor and killing it with a quickness.

This makes sense, and is a good approach to solving the problem.

Setting up a snatch block can be a nuisance however, especially in situations when I need winching every 100 ft of a trail. Knowing myself, I probably won’t be using it all the time.

However choosing farther trees so more rope is used is definitely doable, and would also put less load on the system.

As suggested, a better alternator will help the battery recover faster. Generally though, you are using amperage out of the battery faster than you can put it back so no matter how you do it, the net result will be a loss of charge in the battery which you will still have to work around and be aware of.

If you suspect you are getting into the +200 amp range on the winch draw, even a high amperage 200 amp alternator won't do that until well above idle, or if you get one that does, you won't like the cost or the install effort. At idle or slightly above, you're likely going to be dumping 100-120 amps back in which is a net loss of 80 amps or so and that won't take long to drop the battery down to some place it shouldn't be.

This isn't a winch motor problem.

Since I am planning on buying a new battery anyways, I suspect a larger one (such as a Group 65), wouldn’t be a bad idea. More reserve amps means longer winching time without dropping the battery too low.

 

[PNW_LJ]

I assume you are using a snatch block or wheel to cut your load in half?

Up until this point, rarely.

And even less rarely when the goal was to half the load, and not change direction.

 

[macleanflood]

So I basically went through the exact same thing. Burned up three M8000 motors. Upgraded to a 9.5xp.

Was constantly getting check gauges.

Had an Optima Yellow Top.

Upgraded to the big 7 cables... should have made my own, not terribly impressed with the product.

Went through three alternators. The first one was whatever stock one the PO put on. Second one was a Durango 130a built by Zilkowski's Auto Electric in Springfield, OR...that one burned up a diode bridge and was a constant PIA. Current one... excuse the pun...is a brand new 130a sourced by Zilkowski's. Apparently I cracked the frame last summer reinstalling the engine in the new frame.

And so far that one is working beautifully.

I can't stress how important tight connections are.

I also have three rules... always try and winch off the second wrap off the winch...which usually leads to rule 2...use a snatch block or recovery ring or three because it helps run out more cable...and three...observe the duty cycle on that motor.

I was trying a fourth rule... maintain 2k rpm when winching but that seems to not be necessary per some forum discussion.

Here's the last hurrah on alternator 2...you can occasionally here the check gauges chime.

This is recovering a Ram truck someone ran off a steep forest service road... failed to get it out, then cut up and dismantled the truck while failing to get it out.

Last summer...WABDR...make sure your bolts are tight! Fuse to alternator in lieu of fusable link...

When that Optima dies I'll probably go with a group 65 AGM. Zilkowski's says they have a good battery supplier.

-Mac

P.S. Can't stress how much I love Mr. B's winch ropes. Wizard Recovery gear is awesome. Not totally sold on the safety thimble...prefer tying a diamond knot on the end of my line and making a soft shackle.

P.P.S. You absolutely need the right sticker(s) on your winch. Absolutely imperative to proper function.

 

[Rickyd]

Nice score with the 9.5xp!
Depending on the winches in question,a larger winch can actually draw less amps than a smaller one at the same pull. Look up amp draw for a given pull of some different sizes and you might be surprised.

 

[PNW_LJ]

So I basically went through the exact same thing. Burned up three M8000 motors. Upgraded to a 9.5xp.

Were those all 3 of those brand new Warn motors?

Was constantly getting check gauges.

Had an Optima Yellow Top.

Upgraded to the big 7 cables... should have made my own, not terribly impressed with the product.

Mind sharing what was wrong? Was looking at them last night.

Went through three alternators. The first one was whatever stock one the PO put on. Second one was a Durango 130a built by Zilkowski's Auto Electric in Springfield, OR...that one burned up a diode bridge and was a constant PIA. Current one... excuse the pun...is a brand new 130a sourced by Zilkowski's. Apparently I cracked the frame last summer reinstalling the engine in the new frame.

And so far that one is working beautifully.

I can't stress how important tight connections are.

I also have three rules... always try and winch off the second wrap off the winch...which usually leads to rule 2...use a snatch block or recovery ring or three because it helps run out more cable...and three...observe the duty cycle on that motor.

I was trying a fourth rule... maintain 2k rpm when winching but that seems to not be necessary per some forum discussion.

Here's the last hurrah on alternator 2...you can occasionally here the check gauges chime.

Your experiences seem to be matching Blaine’s advice for the most part. I will be looking into a Group 65 AGM and some new cables (maybe stock replacement for those).

This is recovering a Ram truck someone ran off a steep forest service road... failed to get it out, then cut up and dismantled the truck while failing to get it out.

View attachment 533347

Last summer...WABDR...make sure your bolts are tight! Fuse to alternator in lieu of fusable link...

View attachment 533348

When that Optima dies I'll probably go with a group 65 AGM. Zilkowski's says they have a good battery supplier.

-Mac

P.S. Can't stress how much I love Mr. B's winch ropes. Wizard Recovery gear is awesome. Not totally sold on the safety thimble...prefer tying a diamond knot on the end of my line and making a soft shackle.

Interesting. Does a diamond knot prevent the winch from sucking in your hand into the fairlead?

P.P.S. You absolutely need the right sticker(s) on your winch. Absolutely imperative to proper function.

View attachment 533362

Lol.

 

[Zorba]

Here's another idea that I implemented. In ADDITION to the #2 cables running directly to the battery (both + and -), I also grounded the winch's negative to the frame -=AND=- installed a short #2 ground jumper to connect the frame to the engine block. Additional #2 cables tie the block, tub, and battery negative together.

This gives you a lower negative side impedance, while preserving the reliability of the direct to battery cable. High current grounds are somewhat problematic to keep reliable in a vehicle environment (hence the cable also), but the frame ground will give you a lower impedance than ANY cable you could come up with. But be sure the frame is connected to the battery negative through a heavy jumper - Blaine discovered that the only connection between the two from the factory are the brake lines!

This is basic Ohm's law. When you're talking about 400+ amps, every bit can help. It only takes .00025 ohms to create a .1 volt drop at that current.