Questions about first time out west wheeling trip

pagrey said:
I 100% agree. All I was suggesting is that the other is an alternative that works and lets you still have fun on the trail. I wasn't suggesting anybody drive out of their comfort zone or anything. @jodomcfrodo this is a normal technique used by pretty much anybody that has done a very steep decent in an automatic and in a pinch would work just fine with a manual. I don't mean to argue the point, sorry if it sounded that way. There just aren't any trails that are stick only so all of us that wheel difficult areas with automatics know this is how it works. I mean really, from your comment it does sound like you haven't made a decent in an auto. You have to rely on the brakes and no, it's not dangerous or something a beginner would do.
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I've driven plenty of automatics off-road, ranging from a stock JKU to a LS buggy with a 4L80E. I've spent more time wheeling my manual TJ, but I have enough experience on trails in automatics.

If you use the foot brake in high range on some of the muddy forest service roads I used to wheel, you'd end up in a tree or ditch fairly quickly. Besides smooth constant deceleration, another advantage to using the engine is that you can blip the throttle to straighten out if the back starts to come around on you. With the foot brake, you are just holding on for the ride once your wheels lock. When it comes to high traction, somewhat steep descents, I'm sure using the brakes works fine. But that only works for so long until you find steeper or slipperier obstacles.
 
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Personally I couldn’t imagine riding the brakes down some of these but I suppose it would work. I also like having the control on the way down so engine braking is preferred.

So I spent the morning playing with the cable adjustment.
There was no room to move the large jam nuts on the bracket. I unscrewed the metal end with a the spring a bit to get more length. I figure longer distance between ends the further it’s will push to engage 4low completly.

Heading out a little later to try it out on Imogene again.
 
There is a trail out here called Red Cone. The fun part is a long very steep decent on loose gravel from the very top down the ridge and over to the next flat spot. It's a 1000+ foot fall on either side with little chance of survival at the bottom. The drive down almost certainly requires 4low and engine braking to maintain control and smooth out the speed modulation. Sudden movements will result in a downhill slide with little room for error. The only way to safely recover is to carefully accelerate and drive out of the side. I have needed to do this. Beginning the decent with a slow speed is critical.

Over the decades, I'm sure plenty have made their way down that section with brakes alone or in high range. But they are risking their lives far more than is ever necessary. I've read that Red Cone was once more dangerous than it is today. In addition to the decent, there used to be steps that needed to be negotiated on the way down.
 
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jodomcfrodo said:
Besides smooth constant deceleration, another advantage to using the engine is that you can blip the throttle to straighten out if the back starts to come around on you. With the foot brake, you are just holding on for the ride once your wheels lock. When it comes to high traction, somewhat steep descents, I'm sure using the brakes works fine. But that only works for so long until you find steeper or slipperier obstacles.
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I don't have trouble keeping the speed constant with brakes, they are much easier to control than engine braking with isn't adjustable.

What is the technical difference between getting to the the gas pedal, is it somehow further away from your foot? If you need gas you hit the pedal. I hope you're not suggesting that moving your leg 4" is a big deal.

Your technique is fine, it has advantages, so does the other.

jjvw said:
Over the decades, I'm sure plenty have made their way down that section with brakes alone or in high range. But they are risking their lives far more than is ever necessary.
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Now it's life threatening, gimme a break.
 
Schwifty Rich said:
Personally I couldn’t imagine riding the brakes down some of these but I suppose it would work. I also like having the control on the way down so engine braking is preferred.

So I spent the morning playing with the cable adjustment.
There was no room to move the large jam nuts on the bracket. I unscrewed the metal end with a the spring a bit to get more length. I figure longer distance between ends the further it’s will push to engage 4low completly.

Heading out a little later to try it out on Imogene again.
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Have you confirmed that 4 low works independently of the cable shifter?
 
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jjvw said:
All I know is that with my manual, I would prefer to have all the options to control speed. And that includes engine braking in low range.
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I've been in many situations and watched many folks where engine braking is very bad. In fact, I watched our very own Jerry B. on the exit to Sledge once upon a time where a steep drop was steep enough that at slow normal engine braking speeds, it almost pitched the back over the front. I prefer to be in control and use the brakes with the engine and my hand on the shifter to pop from 1st to 2nd and hit the gas at times.

I almost rolled my rig down a steep sandhill with Gerald's wife in the passenger seat. Going down against the engine in 1st, back started coming around with a quickness. I had to pop it into 2nd and give it some throttle to catch the front back up. It literally turned 45 degrees across the face in an instant.

The answer is, drive the rig, it ain't a tractor.
 
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pagrey said:
I don't have trouble keeping the speed constant with brakes, they are much easier to control than engine braking with isn't adjustable.

What is the technical difference between getting to the the gas pedal, is it somehow further away from your foot? If you need gas you hit the pedal. I hope you're not suggesting that moving your leg 4" is a big deal.

Your technique is fine, it has advantages, so does the other.



Now it's life threatening, gimme a break.
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There is not a single sentence in this post that makes sense to me :(
 
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jodomcfrodo said:
You are absolutely incorrect. You can't control the Jeep using the brakes as well as the engine can. The engine cannot lock the tires up and send you sliding. The brakes can. Have you ever gone down a steep hill in a Jeep before? I can't believe anyone with experience would say something like this.
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Bullshit. I've locked up all 4 many times with nothing but engine braking. Drive it, don't let it drive you.
 
mrblaine said:
Bullshit. I've locked up all 4 many times with nothing but engine braking. Drive it, don't let it drive you.
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Explain to me how you can lock up tires that are mechanically connected to the engine which is running. I’m sure the rig has outpaced the speed at which the engine would let the tires spin, but you absolutely have never gone full lock. If the rig speeds up too quickly for the tires, then you blip the gas. Static versus dynamic friction.
 
jodomcfrodo said:
Explain to me how you can lock up tires that are mechanically connected to the engine which is running. I’m sure the rig has outpaced the speed at which the engine would let the tires spin, but you absolutely have never gone full lock. If the rig speeds up too quickly for the tires, then you blip the gas. Static versus dynamic friction.
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Rig speed is higher than tire speed on sugar sand, rear starts around and as soon as that happens the rear tires quit turning, front follows instantly. Maybe you have never driven a low geared auto?
 
mrblaine said:
I've been in many situations and watched many folks where engine braking is very bad. In fact, I watched our very own Jerry B. on the exit to Sledge once upon a time where a steep drop was steep enough that at slow normal engine braking speeds, it almost pitched the back over the front. ...
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I don't know how to find it again. There was a very well captured video of a guy making a careful decent off of a tall shelf. The front wheels touch the ground right as the rear starts to roll over. The driver throttles out of the front wheel stand a several feet before pulling the rear back down to the ground. It was a great show of skill and maybe some luck.
 
mrblaine said:
Rig speed is higher than tire speed on sugar sand, rear starts around and as soon as that happens the rear tires quit turning, front follows instantly. Maybe you have never driven a low geared auto?
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Like I said above, I’ve driven auto’s off-road. Even one with an atlas 4 speed believe it or not. I don’t see how in any scenario wheels can lock when they are mechanically connected to an engine which is turning.

Are you saying this is an automatic only thing? I thought automatics were just as good at engine braking as manuals?
 
jodomcfrodo said:
Like I said above, I’ve driven auto’s off-road. Even one with an atlas 4 speed believe it or not. I don’t see how in any scenario wheels can lock when they are mechanically connected to an engine which is turning.

Are you saying this is an automatic only thing? I thought automatics were just as good at engine braking as manuals?
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I'm not saying anything except that those who depend on engine braking for descents are not as enlightened as they could be. Drive the rig, don't let it drive you.
 
jjvw said:
I don't know how to find it again. There was a very well captured video of a guy making a careful decent off of a tall shelf. The front wheels touch the ground right as the rear starts to roll over. The driver throttles out of the front wheel stand a several feet before pulling the rear back down to the ground. It was a great show of skill and maybe some luck.
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In most cases, I prefer to be lucky. I've had to hit the throttle several times to drive out of certain roll overs and thankfully my luck has held every time.
 
Schwifty Rich said:
That would mean
Once we get to Imogene I would unlatch the shifter cable at the t case and roll down hill. Right? If the problem persists it’s not related to my shifting linkage.
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It means parking on the street or parking lot at Brown Dog Pizza and unbolting the cable from the shifter arm at the transfer case. Put a wrench on the shifter arm. You can put a foot on a tire to rock the Jeep back and forth a bit to get the case to engage in to 4L. From there you can get a better handle on where the problem is.
 
jjvw said:
It means parking on the street or parking lot at Brown Dog Pizza and unbolting the cable from the shifter arm at the transfer case. Put a wrench on the shifter arm. You can put a foot on a tire to rock the Jeep back and forth a bit to get the case to engage in to 4L. From there you can get a better handle on where the problem is.
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I was basically doing that all morning when I was adjusting the cable ends and bracket nuts.
I was also moving the arm at the t case to see how far it needs to go to engage.

I also went over to gold king basin which is very mild but still threw it in 4low to see if anything would happen and it all worked fine..
 
I may have missed it. Is 4L functional independently of the cable?
 
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jjvw said:
I may have missed it. Is 4L functional independently of the cable?
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i haven’t disconnected it and driven with the linkage removed yet, no.

4low works right now after some gravel roads. It failed when I was going down a steep incline. I haven’t had an Incline like that again yet.
 
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