Rear disc brake conversion question(s)

[parkclay]

I was looking for a conversion for my 05 Dana 44. If you are going to put something together I will wait.
I wish I had seen your big brake kit BEFORE I upgrade my fronts. I will most likely be converting the next time I need brakes.

 

[someguysjeep]

Not at all. The dust shield is "riveted" to the actual backing plate. Rivet is in quotes because it is just a fastener to roughly keep the two parts together until you get the bolts in the holes.

The backing plate is cast iron with a sheet metal dust shield that has some function other than keeping mud out of the shoes. This is a SoCal plate that someone played in the mud with. You can see the mud line. The 4 arrows show the little bosses that the shoes rest against to line them up with the anchor lug. (also where you are supposed to apply brake lube when you do maintenance)
It has an adjuster hole with plug.
It traps the rubber lever "seal" at the top.
It has a little locating tab bent towards the shoes to keep the levers sort of behaving.
Lastly is it a shim of sorts that moves the shoes outward to space them off the backing plate to line up with the lug.

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ya this helps....bendy crap that traps stones and rots away, fuglyness at best.
that thing you posted in #16 is more my speed, a clean simple appearance,

that'd be something to make a bigger brother to with a blank center (DIY your own flange pattern maybe) and it'd take off for 1ton swaps that have no answer for having or keeping the "in the hat" E brakes. priced right it'd have a solid niche over crappy locking calipers and expensive pinion brakes. and it'd be nothing big the JK stuff would do well for bigger rear axles, no?

 

[mrblaine]

ya this helps....bendy crap that traps stones and rots away, fuglyness at best.
that thing you posted in #16 is more my speed, a clean simple appearance,

that'd be something to make a bigger brother to with a blank center (DIY your own flange pattern maybe) and it'd take off for 1ton swaps that have no answer for having or keeping the "in the hat" E brakes. priced right it'd have a solid niche over crappy locking calipers and expensive pinion brakes. and it'd be nothing big the JK stuff would do well for bigger rear axles, no?

The problem with all of that is a rear rotor and matching axle shaft that has the correct bearing offset to put the brake shoes inside the rotor hat properly.

 

[someguysjeep]

The problem with all of that is a rear rotor and matching axle shaft that has the correct bearing offset to put the brake shoes inside the rotor hat properly.

just me thinkin out loud. i don't wanna dilute your TJ application with this right now.
the 1st step is get it to exist, then we can daydream of applications beyond original.

 

[mrblaine]

just me thinkin out loud. i don't wanna dilute your TJ application with this right now.
the 1st step is get it to exist, then we can daydream of applications beyond original.

In that vein, has anyone seen a dimensional drawing of a 44 housing end showing the distance above and below centerline for the 4 holes?

 

[DrDmoney]

In that vein, has anyone seen a dimensional drawing of a 44 housing end showing the distance above and below centerline for the 4 holes?

Like this?

 

[someguysjeep]

Like this?

the bearing retainer goes onto the axle flange, yes? if so the flanges upper holes are spaced closer than the lower holes, correct?
not sure the 6oclk hole applies.

 

[Jerry Bransford]

Yes, just make sure you are using the above flat bearing retainer for drum brakes and retainers with a flange if you have disk brakes.

This is the type for disk brakes, its flange faces inward to hold the seal in place.

 

[someguysjeep]

Yes, just make sure you are using the above flat bearing retainer for drum brakes and retainers with a flange if you have disk brakes.

This is the type for disk brakes, its flange faces inward to hold the seal in place.

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ya the PDF only has the top spread listed. the holes do appear to have different spreads but ultimately neither indicates dimensions from center.

1 might guess by appearance that the horizontal spread is 50/50 but i'm not sure that vertical split is similar. it doesn't appear so.
my thought was he probably has a flange laying around that will give the info and may have just not thought of it.

 

[ColoJeep]

The problem with all of that is a rear rotor and matching axle shaft that has the correct bearing offset to put the brake shoes inside the rotor hat properly.

Not trying to be a total ass , BUT why the need to convert to discs ? Front disc brakes make sense, they do the lion's share of the work
stopping your crap. For parking Rear drum brakes actually have enough braking force leverage to hold the Jeep on a steeper hill.
Also, isn't the main function of the mechanical brake is to be an, " Emergency Brake " that will stop the Jeep if / when you lose hydraulics ?
I know my 99 TJ with drums will LOCK the rear wheels at 30 on pavement, (Scary as hell by the way).
My wife's 04 TJ with OEM rear discs and E-brake in the hat style rotor will slow down at 20 on dirt without locking the wheels.
It would be a candidate for a participation trophy. Maybe for the Florida boys running in swamp mud disc may be easier to wash out,
but us mountain boys need a brake with enough leverage to hold your crap on the mountain or stop you in an " O Shit scenario ".
I know I can only brag about one of our Jeeps having the magic of 4 wheel disc brakes, but I also know which Jeep works a little better in my real world situation.

 

[mrblaine]

Like this?

That is the spread. How far above the center of the tube are the holes?

 

[mrblaine]

ya the PDF only has the top spread listed. the holes do appear to have different spreads but ultimately neither indicates dimensions from center.

1 might guess by appearance that the horizontal spread is 50/50 but i'm not sure that vertical split is similar. it doesn't appear so.
my thought was he probably has a flange laying around that will give the info and may have just not thought of it.

It isn't so you are correct. I do have several flange retainers in both iterations, none have a good way to figure out how to lay out that bolt pattern vertically. Side to side is easy, the rest not so much.

 

[machoheadgames]

Not trying to be a total ass , BUT why the need to convert to discs ? Front disc brakes make sense, they do the lion's share of the work
stopping your crap. For parking Rear drum brakes actually have enough braking force leverage to hold the Jeep on a steeper hill.
Also, isn't the main function of the mechanical brake is to be an, " Emergency Brake " that will stop the Jeep if / when you lose hydraulics ?
I know my 99 TJ with drums will LOCK the rear wheels at 30 on pavement, (Scary as hell by the way).
My wife's 04 TJ with OEM rear discs and E-brake in the hat style rotor will slow down at 20 on dirt without locking the wheels.
It would be a candidate for a participation trophy. Maybe for the Florida boys running in swamp mud disc may be easier to wash out,
but us mountain boys need a brake with enough leverage to hold your crap on the mountain or stop you in an " O Shit scenario ".
I know I can only brag about one of our Jeeps having the magic of 4 wheel disc brakes, but I also know which Jeep works a little better in my real world situation.

The main function of the mechanical brake is to be a parking brake. They aren’t designed for emergencies although they can provide a little bit of assistance.

The drum in hat parking brake as a parking brake is FAR more effective than I’ve ever found the full drums to be. The drums wear out from being a service brake and they don’t adjust themselves properly which ends up wearing your parking brake down until you get down there and adjust again. On the other hand, the drum in hat style practically doesn’t wear at all unless you drive away with it partially set by accident. Otherwise it doesn’t wear for years and years since you just set it and it holds the vehicle stationary.

That and the rear brakes assist with setting the pedal height and feel. When the drums go out of adjustment you lose pedal feel and travel further before the fronts start to work. The discs don’t have that problem. The discs are all around better in practically every way.

When adjusted properly, I have not found one single hill that my drum in hat setup couldn’t hold still on. On the other hand, drums that haven’t been kept in adjustment constantly eventually won’t hold the vehicle at all.

 

[someguysjeep]

Not trying to be a total ass , BUT why the need to convert to discs ? Front disc brakes make sense, they do the lion's share of the work
stopping your crap. For parking Rear drum brakes actually have enough braking force leverage to hold the Jeep on a steeper hill.
Also, isn't the main function of the mechanical brake is to be an, " Emergency Brake " that will stop the Jeep if / when you lose hydraulics ?
I know my 99 TJ with drums will LOCK the rear wheels at 30 on pavement, (Scary as hell by the way).
My wife's 04 TJ with OEM rear discs and E-brake in the hat style rotor will slow down at 20 on dirt without locking the wheels.
It would be a candidate for a participation trophy. Maybe for the Florida boys running in swamp mud disc may be easier to wash out,
but us mountain boys need a brake with enough leverage to hold your crap on the mountain or stop you in an " O Shit scenario ".
I know I can only brag about one of our Jeeps having the magic of 4 wheel disc brakes, but I also know which Jeep works a little better in my real world situation.

nvrmnd

 

[ColoJeep]

The main function of the mechanical brake is to be a parking brake. They aren’t designed for emergencies although they can provide a little bit of assistance.

The drum in hat parking brake as a parking brake is FAR more effective than I’ve ever found the full drums to be. The drums wear out from being a service brake and they don’t adjust themselves properly which ends up wearing your parking brake down until you get down there and adjust again. On the other hand, the drum in hat style practically doesn’t wear at all unless you drive away with it partially set by accident. Otherwise it doesn’t wear for years and years since you just set it and it holds the vehicle stationary.

That and the rear brakes assist with setting the pedal height and feel. When the drums go out of adjustment you lose pedal feel and travel further before the fronts start to work. The discs don’t have that problem. The discs are all around better in practically every way.

When adjusted properly, I have not found one single hill that my drum in hat setup couldn’t hold still on. On the other hand, drums that haven’t been kept in adjustment constantly eventually won’t hold the vehicle at all.

Thanks for the reply!, Sure if you don't know how to adjust your rear drums either using the self adjusting feature, or manually adjusting them brake performance will suffer. But when both systems are properly maintained the rear drums have a much larger
effective diameter than the disc hat and will have more braking force leverage.
Maybe maintenance, ( or the lack there of ) is the reason for the rear disc appeal.
I totally agree with the assessment that "parking brakes" can provide a little bit of assistance in emergencies. I feel the hat style does
not have the brake leverage to lock / hard stop a TJ in the same way that a 10" drum will.
I guess we all have differing applications and terrains that we use our TJ's in.

 

[machoheadgames]

Thanks for the reply!, Sure if you don't know how to adjust your rear drums either using the self adjusting feature, or manually adjusting them brake performance will suffer. But when both systems are properly maintained the rear drums have a much larger
effective diameter than the disc hat and will have more braking force leverage.
Maybe maintenance, ( or the lack there of ) is the reason for the rear disc appeal.
I totally agree with the assessment that "parking brakes" can provide a little bit of assistance in emergencies. I feel the hat style does
not have the brake leverage to lock / hard stop a TJ in the same way that a 10" drum will.
I guess we all have differing applications and terrains that we use our TJ's in.

I know how to adjust drums. The problem is they are supposed to self adjust and they rarely ever do. If proper maintenance means I have to get under there and adjust them myself every few thousand miles, then I don’t want it. Disc brakes keep that issue at bay because their parking brake rarely if ever needs adjusting.

And again, I have found 0 evidence that the drum in hat style is any weaker or less powerful than the full size drums. They are pretty damn strong. Sounds like the 04 not performing to your satisfaction needs to be adjusted. Sometimes they come from the factory not adjusted very well or whoever replaced the parts if they’ve been replaced didn’t set them up properly or bed them. I have never found the drum in hat style to not be able to perform in any aspect just as well as the stock full size drums can.

You are not incorrect that the full size drums have a larger diameter but I have not found that to matter in general. For what you need them to do, the drum in hat has no real world drawbacks.

 

[mrblaine]

Thanks for the reply!, Sure if you don't know how to adjust your rear drums either using the self adjusting feature, or manually adjusting them brake performance will suffer. But when both systems are properly maintained the rear drums have a much larger
effective diameter than the disc hat and will have more braking force leverage.
Maybe maintenance, ( or the lack there of ) is the reason for the rear disc appeal.
I totally agree with the assessment that "parking brakes" can provide a little bit of assistance in emergencies. I feel the hat style does
not have the brake leverage to lock / hard stop a TJ in the same way that a 10" drum will.
I guess we all have differing applications and terrains that we use our TJ's in.

You're overlooking one thing and it is critical. The rear drum brakes on a TJ are servo style or self actuating which is why they have the very stout return springs at the top to stop the self actuating nature and pull the shoes away from the drum surface. Also why there is a primary and secondary shoe which also has the effect of the parking brake function always working better one direction than the opposite.

The drum in hat rotor versions are non servo in nature and work equally both directions. And, if you seeing a difference in how one holds the vehicle against its weight on an incline, then you don't have the DIH working properly. I know for a fact that when they are bedded and adjusted properly, they will shear the anchor lug off if you try and drive off in 4 low.

 

[ColoJeep]

You're overlooking one thing and it is critical. The rear drum brakes on a TJ are servo style or self actuating which is why they have the very stout return springs at the top to stop the self actuating nature and pull the shoes away from the drum surface. Also why there is a primary and secondary shoe which also has the effect of the parking brake function always working better one direction than the opposite.

The drum in hat rotor versions are non servo in nature and work equally both directions. And, if you seeing a difference in how one holds the vehicle against its weight on an incline, then you don't have the DIH working properly. I know for a fact that when they are bedded and adjusted properly, they will shear the anchor lug off if you try and drive off in 4 low.

I realize difference between servo and non servo brakes many don't, I get it. I guess that's why I can see the difference in effective brake force in stopping the Jeeps using the mechanical brake at speed going forward. If all you doing is using the mechanical brake to
keep the jeep from rolling, then either properly maintained system will work.
Back to my original question, is all the cost and hassle of converting drums to disc actually cost effective to marginally improve the
"parking brake" in a rear end down hill situation? And the ability to not have to maintain a drum in hat systems much as a standard drum system.Thanks Blaine ! I am trying to figure out the Big Why.

 

[mrblaine]

I realize difference between servo and non servo brakes many don't, I get it. I guess that's why I can see the difference in effective brake force in stopping the Jeeps using the mechanical brake at speed going forward. If all you doing is using the mechanical brake to
keep the jeep from rolling, then either properly maintained system will work.
Back to my original question, is all the cost and hassle of converting drums to disc actually cost effective to marginally improve the
"parking brake" in a rear end down hill situation? And the ability to not have to maintain a drum in hat systems much as a standard drum system.Thanks Blaine ! I am trying to figure out the Big Why.

There is only one reason I convert to discs other than I despise working on drum brakes. You don't have to adjust them, the pedal stays the same height throughout the life of the friction material.

 

[ColoJeep]

There is only one reason I convert to discs other than I despise working on drum brakes. You don't have to adjust them, the pedal stays the same height throughout the life of the friction material.

Thanks for a honest answer.