Smooth(er) Ride

[mrblaine]

I had RE springs with ome nitro sports. I thought it rode like a covered wagon, because I couldn't get the suspension to budge even if I bounced on the front bumper. So I assumed the springs were too stiff. If I remember correctly, MrBlaine said it wasn't the how stiff the springs were, but rather where the springs had my shocks sitting in their range of travel. So I measured, had about 3" of shock up travel. I then put my metalcloak springs in, which raised it another inch, resulting in more shock up travel. It rode so much better, but not because of the springs, but rather because my shocks were not riding near the end of compression, which they get considerably stiffer as they compress. So for a better ride, we need to consider where the shock is in relation to how much up travel is left in it at ride height, as well as tire pressure.

And that right there is why the myth about springs gets perpetuated. Folks take a rig with a spring that has the shock in the last couple of inches of shock travel which produces a harsh nasty ride. They toss on a spring with a few more inches of lift height which is not necessarily a stiffer spring but can be, and it gives them a much more cushy ride because the shock isn't bottoming out nearly as often and then they report that the springs made all the difference. Simply not true.

 

[jjvw]

...Adual rate coil compresses in two stages so yes it does make a difference. The difference might be small and depending on shock choice might make more or less of a difference but it does matter. Now bang for your buck is shocks first, coils second *not taking tire pressure into consideration. The science behind coil diameter, spacing, number of coils and overall the rate is so complicated and will change the potential for ride quality as those values change.
...

I'll go out on a small limb and say that some people may be able to tell some difference between certain springs that provide similar ride heights. But it needs to be their Jeep and most likely needs to be their daily driver. I'm not going to go into my experimentations except to say that it isn't worth the time, effort or expense to tune the ride through springs. There are plenty of reasons to pay attention to spring rates and lengths, but ride quality is exceedingly low on that list.

2003 Rubicon

 

[jchadscud]

And that right there is why the myth about springs gets perpetuated. Folks take a rig with a spring that has the shock in the last couple of inches of shock travel which produces a harsh nasty ride. They toss on a spring with a few more inches of lift height which is not necessarily a stiffer spring but can be, and it gives them a much more cushy ride because the shock isn't bottoming out nearly as often and then they report that the springs made all the difference. Simply not true.

What’s the easiest way to check if this is set properly?

 

[Chris]

I had RE springs with ome nitro sports. I thought it rode like a covered wagon, because I couldn't get the suspension to budge even if I bounced on the front bumper. So I assumed the springs were too stiff. If I remember correctly, MrBlaine said it wasn't the how stiff the springs were, but rather where the springs had my shocks sitting in their range of travel. So I measured, had about 3" of shock up travel. I then put my metalcloak springs in, which raised it another inch, resulting in more shock up travel. It rode so much better, but not because of the springs, but rather because my shocks were not riding near the end of compression, which they get considerably stiffer as they compress. So for a better ride, we need to consider where the shock is in relation to how much up travel is left in it at ride height, as well as tire pressure.

This is something that is often overlooked, so it's nice that you're pointing this out. I guess it just goes to show that when building a rig (or piecing together a lift), a lot of thought should go into what shocks you're pairing with what springs. A good combination is definitely going to provide the best ride.

And of course correct tire pressure, as that one is often overlooked as well!

 

[balfred]

I will bet you any amount that you care to wager that I can set up a rig with any "dual rate" spring you care to show up with and then set the same rig up with a single rate spring and with all other things being equal, you won't be able to tell any difference in ride quality whatsoever.

There is nothing I can say to reason with you at this point clearly so I will skip your "offer". I will add this, forums are a place for fans to come together and ask questions and get answers based on user feedback from experience. Yes there is good and bad but don't write me off when you don't know my background. Don't steamroll people because you feel you are right and therfore they MUST be wrong. That defeats the very purpose of forums. My dad told me a long time ago, never walk into a room thinking you are the smartest one because most likely, you aren't.

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[jjvw]

...

In all of those, the only noticeable improvement in ride quality other than negligible amounts that would not have been noticed by anyone else but Matt, the shock work is the only thing that made a difference.

We went back and forth on the spring topic a while ago. Looking back, especially after my recent round of shock work, any differences I perceived from the springs were very minor (negligable) and most certainly only felt by me due to my familiarity with the Jeep and the roads I drive everyday. Perspective changes many things in life...

2003 Rubicon

 

[BendLarry]

This is an interesting thread. My 06 Rubicon with a RE (I think) 5 inch lift and OME shocks and load range E tires with 25 psi has a very harsh ride. In my case I think I need to go to load range C tires first and then think about shocks if the new tires don’t do the job. I have no idea if the shocks and springs are a proper match or not. The lift was on the rig when I bought it.


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[jjvw]

... My dad told me a long time ago, never walk into a room thinking you are the smartest one because most likely, you aren't.

I'm thinking the smartest guy is in the room right now.

2003 Rubicon

 

[glwood]

This is an interesting thread. My 06 Rubicon with a RE (I think) 5 inch lift and OME shocks and load range E tires with 25 psi has a very harsh ride. In my case I think I need to go to load range C tires first and then think about shocks if the new tires don’t do the job. I have no idea if the shocks and springs are a proper match or not. The lift was on the rig when I bought it.Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Hence why the general consensus when folks are asking about buying a TJ for the first time is to find one completely stock if possible. Gives the best starting baseline for suspension changes going forward. I've been in both camps. I will take the stock Jeep any day.

 

[BendLarry]

Hence why the general consensus when folks are asking about buying a TJ for the first time is to find one completely stock if possible. Gives the best starting baseline for suspension changes going forward.

I agree.


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[balfred]

I'm thinking the smartest guy is in the room right now.

2003 Rubicon

Far from it if you were meaning I thought I was lol!

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[jjvw]

What’s the easiest way to check if this is set properly?

How much up and down travel do you have?

If you don't know how much overall travel is in your shocks, measure the amount of exposed shaft at ride height, unbolt one end and measure the extended length. Then do the math.

2003 Rubicon

 

[jjvw]

Far from it if you were meaning I thought I was lol!

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Yep. Far from it.

All I can say is that I've been working my way through this stuff for a decent amount of time and I have learned many things from many people along the way. Blaine is consistently one of the few out there that we should all take a moment and try to carefully understand what he is telling us.

2003 Rubicon

 

[glwood]

Yeah, when a discussion (read: argument) flares up with @mrblaine, I just sit back and watch the show...:icon_popcorn:

 

[jchadscud]

How much up and down travel do you have?

If you don't know how much overall travel is in your shocks, measure the amount of exposed shaft at ride height, unbolt one end and measure the extended length. Then do the math.

2003 Rubicon

I just had new Rancho 5000x shocks put on. Based on the part numbers it should be:
Compressed Length: 15.063
Extended Length: 24.688
Travel Length: 9.625

 

[jjvw]

I just had new Rancho 5000x shocks put on. Based on the part numbers it should be:
Compressed Length: 15.063
Extended Length: 24.688
Travel Length: 9.625

That is a start. How much up travel do you have? Meaning how much space is there between the cup and pad?

2003 Rubicon

 

[jchadscud]

That is a start. How much up travel do you have? Meaning how much space is there between the cup and pad?

2003 Rubicon

I’ll measure tomorrow. Are you referring to the distance shown below in yellow?

 

[jjvw]

I’ll measure tomorrow. Are you referring to the distance shown below in yellow?

View attachment 37949

The yellow part, yes. This assumes that your bump stops are correctly extended.

2003 Rubicon

 

[mrblaine]

There is nothing I can say to reason with you at this point clearly so I will skip your "offer". I will add this, forums are a place for fans to come together and ask questions and get answers based on user feedback from experience. Yes there is good and bad but don't write me off when you don't know my background. Don't steamroll people because you feel you are right and therfore they MUST be wrong. That defeats the very purpose of forums. My dad told me a long time ago, never walk into a room thinking you are the smartest one because most likely, you aren't.

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I don't ever think I'm the smartest guy in the room. I do quite often know that I've tested more stuff purely for the sake of knowledge than anyone you'll ever meet. See how we did Matt's rig? No one else would do that and double the amount of work it takes and quadruple the time it takes except to learn something and to teach Matt what I knew. The internet is rife with "knowledge" and very little understanding. I have understanding to go with that knowledge because I test it simply to have a defensible position in discussions such as this.

Ever see the 4 hole versus 1 hole injector bullshit? I'm the guy who paid for new ones and swapped them into a good working rig simply to see if there were any merit to the claims and there isn't.

Even see the discussions about well tuned shocks from AllTech Motorsports? I'm the guy who started that many years ago by working with him and PAYING for tunes on the shocks I was outboarding so that I would have a good working knowledge of how shocks can be set up to work on our TJ's and I spent a lot of money dialing in those tunes.

Speaking of outboarding shocks, ever see any discussions about them and why it is a good thing? I'm the guy who invented it.

My helper has a problem breaking u-joints and cracking caps on Spicer U-joints when we wheel in JV. I'm the guy who assisted Revolution with the development of the JK big joint shafts and just today I took delivery of a set I purchased just to find out if the larger u-joint and quality shafts works the way I think they will. We have a test mule with a track record of issues and we are going to fully UNDERSTAND if they do in fact work that way. I paid for them to achieve that level of understanding and they are not going in any rig I own.

I have 6 complete sets of stock size shocks on the shelf that I have put on my test mule TJ Unlimited simply to learn what each has to offer. It has also had 4 different sets of control arms on it, just so I can understand the differences.

Any time any where someone touts a brake pad for the TJ that they claim is the best, I buy them, put them on the test mule with new rotors and go testing. I have purchased and tested at least 20 different sets of pads over the years and tested them because I will understand the differences and use that as best I can.

I have built from scratch 5 different brake kits that I haven't turned into products because the testing showed me that they wouldn't do what I wanted.

I have a proven PSC steering set up for the TJ. I got it to be proven by starting many years ago doing installs. Every single time I had an issue show up, I solved the problem and then that solution got incorporated into the next kit. After doing about 15-20 of them, I got it to where I can do a problem free install and know that it is going to work exactly as I want it to.

Even see the Durango steering gear recommended? I bought one (very high quality rebuilt) when they first came out with that suggestion and installed it just so I would know what it was about. I won't install another one.

Ever see anyone talk about progressive rate springs? Ever see one, a real one progressive rate and not progressive wound? You have, we all have but it isn't the one you think most likely. The factory TJ rear spring is the only progressive rate spring I've ever seen and that is because the wire they wind the spring with is tapered from both end to fatter in the middle. An aftermarket spring made that way would cost several hundred per spring.

Speaking of progressive "rate" springs, you know many folks that take springs over to the guy with the spring dyno to find out if they are really progressive rate and not just progressive wound? I do and have done just that.

Ever see an "abrasion" guard sleeve on a synthetic winch-line? Do you understand that they are not guards nor to they work to save the line when used against the thing you most need them to protect the line from, sharp rocks?

I didn't mean to steam roll you, it is just that this discussion has been beat to death on the internet by those who don't understand a damn thing about springs and suspension and then want to run their mouth like they know what they are talking about and they just don't.

I don't know your background. I don't need to. If you believe that springs affect ride quality on a TJ with all other things being equal, that tells me enough. You have your purpose for forums and that is fine. Mine is to use what I know and understand to correct the stuff from those that think they know.

 

[mrblaine]

We went back and forth on the spring topic a while ago. Looking back, especially after my recent round of shock work, any differences I perceived from the springs were very minor (negligable) and most certainly only felt by me due to my familiarity with the Jeep and the roads I drive everyday. Perspective changes many things in life...

2003 Rubicon

Doesn't it though?