Why all the hate for subframe type builds?

[HenikonLJ]

Okay I've searched and read until I started forgetting more than I was learning. So many contradictory posts and brand bashing. Why all the hate for subframe type builds? I.e motobilt, genright tracer, rubi express, rock krawler ect.

Been trying to plan for a future phase of my lj. If this was a few years ago I would just go home built stuff, tummy tuck cut into the body to get as much frame side separation as I need and keep it low enough to get at least 5" up travel on 40s. But I've been hanging out with bad influencer friends who have built rigs with subframes and they flat out work. Sure they sacrifice some ground clearance (still better than stock) but at the same time obtain more up travel while keeping a lower center.

Current idea I've had is buy the tracer subframe kit and build off that, however can't find any info on separation numbers for the frame side. Only reason I'm eyeing the tracer is because it looks like I can run 1 1/4 for both upper and lower arms vs others that appear like 1 1/4 lower and 7/8 upper. I like to over build plus I have about 14 1 1/4 tmr joints laying around along with a bunch of emf stuff..

 

[Apparition]

My current kinda in progress build is using a mid arm, stock stretched frame and 14 inch 2.5 coilovers. My target is a 50/50 travel split running 40’s on my LJ.

I don’t see any benefit to those setups.

 

[Rubeyu]

Look at the Big Belly and Long Links on this car. This is the personnel car of probably one of the most respected figures in off road his name is on the side panel. Why would a guy like John Currie built a car like this when he could built anything he wanted? IDK maybe he knows how to build and race off road vehicles that work and win races. Somebody needs to tell him to read WF so he can get some pointers from the resident web wheelers who know how to built a rig.

 

[reddvltj]

Look at the Big Belly and Long Links on this car. This is the personnel car of probably one of the most respected figures in off road his name is on the side panel. Why would a guy like John Currie built a car like this when he could built anything he wanted? IDK maybe he knows how to build and race off road vehicles that work and win races. Somebody needs to tell him to read WF so he can get some pointers from the resident web wheelers who know how to built a rig.


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The Devil's in the details.. look how far up the body the boatside goes...

 

[jjvw]

Look at the Big Belly and Long Links on this car. This is the personnel car of probably one of the most respected figures in off road his name is on the side panel. Why would a guy like John Currie built a car like this when he could built anything he wanted? IDK maybe he knows how to build and race off road vehicles that work and win races. Somebody needs to tell him to read WF so he can get some pointers from the resident web wheelers who know how to built a rig.


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How much of what you see is still a TJ beyond a couple pieces of the body?

 

[psrivats]

Look at the Big Belly and Long Links on this car. This is the personnel car of probably one of the most respected figures in off road his name is on the side panel. Why would a guy like John Currie built a car like this when he could built anything he wanted? IDK maybe he knows how to build and race off road vehicles that work and win races. Somebody needs to tell him to read WF so he can get some pointers from the resident web wheelers who know how to built a rig.


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Any futurama fans here?

 

[CMBD]

Look at the Big Belly and Long Links on this car. This is the personnel car of probably one of the most respected figures in off road his name is on the side panel. Why would a guy like John Currie built a car like this when he could built anything he wanted? IDK maybe he knows how to build and race off road vehicles that work and win races. Somebody needs to tell him to read WF so he can get some pointers from the resident web wheelers who know how to built a rig.


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Not even sure what your point is. Your comparing something scratch/ purpose built to a production vehicle. Probably built that because he wanted a U4 style recreational car and didn't want to be limited by a Jeep platform.

Calm down and go find some 4500 class TJ builds. Please report back on your findings.

 

[Blackjack]

Okay I've searched and read until I started forgetting more than I was learning. So many contradictory posts and brand bashing. Why all the hate for subframe type builds? I.e motobilt, genright tracer, rubi express, rock krawler ect.

Been trying to plan for a future phase of my lj. If this was a few years ago I would just go home built stuff, tummy tuck cut into the body to get as much frame side separation as I need and keep it low enough to get at least 5" up travel on 40s. But I've been hanging out with bad influencer friends who have built rigs with subframes and they flat out work. Sure they sacrifice some ground clearance (still better than stock) but at the same time obtain more up travel while keeping a lower center.

Current idea I've had is buy the tracer subframe kit and build off that, however can't find any info on separation numbers for the frame side. Only reason I'm eyeing the tracer is because it looks like I can run 1 1/4 for both upper and lower arms vs others that appear like 1 1/4 lower and 7/8 upper. I like to over build plus I have about 14 1 1/4 tmr joints laying around along with a bunch of emf stuff..

Skip the Genright stuff it does not have enough separation. Same for the Rubicon Express and Rock Krawler.

The majority of "kits" that utilize the belly will not have enough link separation because there is no room to do so.

Motobilt is worth thinking about for doing a big meat (aka 40 plus) build but know that it is meant to be used with their back half kit along with lots of sheet metal modification. It has ideal link separation but also has the belly and lower link mounts further from the frame so the larger rubber is needed to maintain decent belly clearance.

 

[Rubeyu]

How much of what you see is still a TJ beyond a couple pieces of the body?

How much of what you see is still a TJ beyond a couple pieces of the body?

When is a TJ still at Tj. when is it not?

 

[jjvw]

When is a TJ still at Tj. when is it not?

Ok. In your dumb example, where does the TJ end and the sub frame begin? At the cowl?

 

[Rubeyu]

Not even sure what your point is. Your comparing something scratch/ purpose built to a production vehicle. Probably built that because he wanted a U4 style recreational car and didn't want to be limited by a Jeep platform.

Calm down and go find some 4500 class TJ builds. Please report back on your findings.

Calm as clam buddy. I’ll ask you the same question when is a Tj still a Tj? When is it not?

 

[mrblaine]

But I've been hanging out with bad influencer friends who have built rigs with subframes and they flat out work. Sure they sacrifice some ground clearance (still better than stock) but at the same time obtain more up travel while keeping a lower center.

You don't need our approval to do that, go do it. If you have an example that you want to copy from your influencers, go do it and stop trolling.

I like to over build plus I have about 14 1 1/4 tmr joints laying around along with a bunch of emf stuff..

Perfect answer from someone who uses bullshit to justify not doing something elegantly.

 

[mrblaine]

Look at the Big Belly and Long Links on this car. This is the personnel car of probably one of the most respected figures in off road his name is on the side panel. Why would a guy like John Currie built a car like this when he could built anything he wanted? IDK maybe he knows how to build and race off road vehicles that work and win races. Somebody needs to tell him to read WF so he can get some pointers from the resident web wheelers who know how to built a rig.


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Can you post up the car they (he and Gerald) used to win many races in KOH at a build level that kept most of the TJ sheetmetal? While you are at it, can you point out a single piece of TJ sheetmetal on John's car?

 

[Apparition]

Better view, only has 5 slots

 

[mrblaine]

Calm as clam buddy. I’ll ask you the same question when is a Tj still a Tj? When is it not?

Apparently your definition is as long as 2" of the grill shell is retained, its a TJ.

 

[HenikonLJ]

Apparently your definition is as long as 2" of the grill shell is retained, its a TJ.

Alright I'll stop trolling after this.

You don't need our approval to do that, go do it. If you have an example that you want to copy from your influencers, go do it and stop trolling.


Perfect answer from someone who uses bullshit to justify not doing something elegantly.

I was honestly hoping to see some kind of actual information brought up. I've seen everyone praise the midarm kit and I know why it's good because there's actual numbers online that can be found like antisquat and roll center.
I honestly can't find any information on most other "kits" that are a subframe type build.

 

[Rubeyu]

Can you post up the car they (he and Gerald) used to win many races in KOH at a build level that kept most of the TJ sheetmetal? While you are at it, can you point out a single piece of TJ sheetmetal on John's car?

The Savvy EMC cars contained the essence of a Jeep 100% The point of my comments is you build a Jeep to run 40’s with big axles, big shocks, frame stretch all the shit to make it right is it still really a jeep.

I don’t see a problem with builds with subframes and longer links I just don’t see it as a Jeep anymore.

 

[CMBD]

Calm as clam buddy. I’ll ask you the same question when is a Tj still a Tj? When is it not?

Stupid question. But Ill play along.

Its not when your posting pics of basically a U4 car with zero TJ parts.

 

[jjvw]

Alright I'll stop trolling after this.

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I was honestly hoping to see some kind of actual information brought up. I've seen everyone praise the midarm kit and I know why it's good because there's actual numbers online that can be found like antisquat and roll center.
I honestly can't find any information on most other "kits" that are a subframe type build.

What problem are you trying to address that will be solved with a subframe? Start there.

 

[mrblaine]

The Savvy EMC cars contained the essence of a Jeep 100% The point of my comments is you build a Jeep to run 40’s with big axles, big shocks, frame stretch all the shit to make it right is it still really a jeep.

Which part of these builds no longer resemble what they started as?

If you squint just right, you can see the orange fairlead above on the white rig in the background below.

Right as we started on it.

All of those retain the stock frame without a subframe or back half. The stock wheel arch is moved back on the ones that are stretched. The khaki TJ is 104ish. The white one is 115ish, the black one is 114ish and I'm in the middle of a red one to match the black and white ones, it's at 115ish.

I don’t see a problem with builds with subframes and longer links I just don’t see it as a Jeep anymore.

How about now? (except for the subframe part)