Why complex computers in cars make me uneasy

[Equilibrium31]

Not sure if this video has been posted anywhere before, but this perfectly encapsulates why I love having a simple TJ. As nice as some of the computers in the new cars are, I just don't like having so many core systems of a car tied up in an unnecessarily complex system. Even with the best quality control, there's just too many failure points affecting too many functions.

(Skip to 8:44 mark)

 

[Chris]

Amen brother! I've been saying this since I started the forum.

Don't get me wrong... I think there's a lot of cool aspects about new cars, and if I was going to buy a family vehicle that I never intended on working on myself, it would be a new car. However, when it comes to wrenching on my own and a hobby type of vehicle, I love the TJ for the fact that it's relatively simple compared to the more modern JKs and JLs.

Sure, the TJs have computers, fuel injection, etc., but it's a lot more simple than all the extra crap they added to the later generations, that's for sure! The damn JKs have TPMS, ABS modules, traction control, more airbags and SRS systems, etc. Basically just more stuff to make my time as a DIY mechanic more miserable.

I'm sorry, but while a new JL or JK might be exceptional off-road, once that thing breaks, you're going to have a hell of a hard time fixing it. My TJ will be much simpler to fix, I'll say that much!

I know a number of people here locally with JLs and I've been reading a lot online. There's a lot of electrical gremlins people are talking about, and the one mentioned in the video is similar to an issue a local guy here with a JL was having on his. He's only got 5000 miles on it and it's already been in for servicing at the dealer 5 times!

I trust Toyota or Honda with designing something that works, but I DO NOT trust Fiat / Chrysler with building anything electronic.

 

[billiebob]

"I just don't like having so many core systems of a car tied up in an unnecessarily complex system....."

100%, I swear my next vehicle will have a carburetor, cast iron engine, tranny, transfer case, and leaf springs.
Bring on armageddon !!

"I love the smell of napalm in the morning."

 

[billiebob]

WOW... 8:44 was special but at 6:20.... came the reason I'll never buy one.

 

[Squatch]

"I just don't like having so many core systems of a car tied up in an unnecessarily complex system....."

100%, I swear my next vehicle will have a carburetor, cast iron engine, tranny, transfer case, and leaf springs.
Bring on armageddon !!

"I love the smell of napalm in the morning."

I know that TJs are considered relatively simple by most here, but I'm with @billiebob on this one. I just bought a $287 (regular price) Bosch fuel pump for my TJ, where a carbed rig would be more in the $30 range. Get one old enough, and ask yourself "What's an O2 sensor?". Computer? I've got a calculator in the glove box, if that's what you mean. I know all the arguments for gas mileage, performance, better articulation, etc. There's truth to all that. However, when you want to talk truly "simple", you need to go pre-TJ...maybe even pre-YJ.

 

[billiebob]

you need to go pre-TJ...maybe even pre-YJ.

When we lived in Yellowknife, 2000, at 50 below the computers did not know what to do. If you were not plugged in the car would flood everytime. When an EFI floods with 80-100psi..... You need an oil change.... everytime. And at -50C you are not doing it in the driveway. You pay &70.00/hr.

So I bought an '87 YJ.... with a carburetor. 50 below, lift the air cleaner, lift that pickle jar of gas nestled in by the brake booster, dump in some raw gas, turn the key. Worked every time!! It was a YJ with a Peugeot 5 speed and 3.07s but it was God north of 60.

About 2005? they introduced 4 cycle snow mobiles with EFI... and a block heater. We ice fishing lots. Staying in cabins with no roads. All the guys with old sleds, 2 pulls and we were gone. The guys with 4 stroke EFI.... they had to drag out the genset and plug in for an hour. Yeah, there is a place for hybrids but there is still a NEED for a carburetor.

 

[Equilibrium31]

I trust Toyota or Honda with designing something that works, but I DO NOT trust Fiat / Chrysler with building anything electronic.

Yea, this is a pretty key point for me. If I was to buy a new fancy, hi tech car for off-roading, I would want it solid and reliably like Toyotas and Hondas. Unfortunately, Jeep just hasn't had a very good reputation with reliability lately.

I'm still way too amateur to really get into much deep wrenching, but I'm looking to get more into it. My dream is to one day buy an old YJ and restore it into a fun little off-roading project. But in the meantime, my TJ still needs a lot of work and a ton of upgrades! :b1:

 

[billiebob]

Toyota ? with the unintended acceleration debacle ? they all make huuge mistakes.

 

[billiebob]

Get rid of the 25% chicken tax on foreign trucks and we might see competition for the Wrangler.... competition and a lifting of the Wrangler strangle hold of this market.

 

[Chris]

Yea, this is a pretty key point for me. If I was to buy a new fancy, hi tech car for off-roading, I would want it solid and reliably like Toyotas and Hondas. Unfortunately, Jeep just hasn't had a very good reputation with reliability lately.

I'm still way too amateur to really get into much deep wrenching, but I'm looking to get more into it. My dream is to one day buy an old YJ and restore it into a fun little off-roading project. But in the meantime, my TJ still needs a lot of work and a ton of upgrades! :b1:

Fiat / Chrysler isn't very good with dependability, this is true. If you compare them to a Toyota or Honda, they don't hold up, that's for sure. The engines are fine, it's the damn electronics that are always running haywire.

My TJ is easy enough for me to do just about anything on with the exception of rebuilding the transmission or changing gear ratios. I'll leave that stuff to the experts!

As for YJs, they're even simpler than TJs!

 

[Chris]

Get rid of the 25% chicken tax on foreign trucks and we might see competition for the Wrangler.... competition and a lifting of the Wrangler strangle hold of this market.

I keep hoping Ford will give them some competition with the new Bronco, but I won't hold my breath. Toyota could do it in Land Cruiser form... if they built one that had removable components like the Wrangler does.

 

[billiebob]

Here are 4 from around the world that thanks to a 54 year 25% tariff on import trucks, the USA has never seen.

 

[Squatch]

Personally, I would like to see a return to the simplicity and utilitarian "feel" of the original Isuzu Trooper. Everything has gotten bloated on the outside, confining on the inside, and damn near "hands-off" for the DYI guy who likes to do his own repairs. That, and sending the prices through the roof. No thanks. I'd go older before I'd go newer.

 

[KMG]

Jeeps are like women. It's nice to look at and dream about a newer model but for day to day living I'll stick with an older one.

 

[TJ2]

Amen brother! I've been saying this since I started the forum.

I trust Toyota or Honda with designing something that works, but I DO NOT trust Fiat / Chrysler with building anything electronic.

My FIAT '16 Renegade manual trans has issues after 80 miles (4 module flushes required). Leaked turbo oil at 600 miles. Replaced electronic brake assembly at 1,200 miles. The auto trans is a nightmare to own.

 

[Chris]

My FIAT '16 Renegade manual trans has issues after 80 miles (module flush). Leaked turbo oil at 600 miles. Replaced electronic brake assembly at 1,200 miles. The auto trans is a nightmare to own.

Not surprising. Fiat / Chrysler doesn't build what I would call dependable vehicles.

The TJ is an exception. While it was produced by Chrysler, it's still largely an AMC vehicle at heart. A good chunk of the parts on it are things AMC produced.

 

[Squatch]

Not surprising. Fiat / Chrysler doesn't build what I would call dependable vehicles.

The TJ is an exception. While it was produced by Chrysler, it's still largely an AMC vehicle at heart. A good chunk of the parts on it are things AMC produced.

You were just fishing for a "Like" from me, weren't ya, @Chris?

 

[CybrSlydr]

Yeah, there is a place for hybrids but there is still a NEED for a carburetor.

 

[Chris]

You were just fishing for a "Like" from me, weren't ya, @Chris?

Secretly, yes!

It's true though. I did a lot of researching on the matter. While the TJ may have been produced by Chrysler, it was largely done so using leftover AMC parts, and a lot of it remained unchanged from when AMC got taken over. The JK in 2007 was a complete redesign altogether, which of course was 100% Chrysler.

 

[Kiwi TJ]

Its a shame they cant do a stripped down version of the new JK or JL.....lose most of the computers and sensors...I know financially they wouldn't do it.
* I still wouldn't buy one just because of the shape etc.....but it would make working on them soooo much easier.