Working through final wiring issues on my build and I'm stumped

Please fill out your profile. All I know from your post is you have a 99 TJ. If your profile was filled out, I could quickly determine which engine and which transmission you have, and it would be easier to help. Fortunately, I recall your previous posts about a manual transmission/clutch problem. Here's the starting system wiring diagram:

View attachment 535371

If you look at that, the relay is the key component. A relay is a way to switch a high-current system with a low-current switch (so the switch doesn't melt). The solenoid on the starter draws enough current to require a relay. The relay is a mechanical device, and the schematic above helps understand how it works. On the left side of the schematic is the coil of the relay, part of an electro-magnet. It's shown by the zig-zaggy line and the rectangle with a slash in it. On a manual transmission TJ, the BR/LB wire (BRown with a Light Blue stripe) grounds one side of the relay's coil all the time. Energization of the relay is controlled by the positive side only.

When you turn the key to the start position, battery positive is connected through contact #1 in the ignition switch schematic (upper left corner above) via the YL wire (YeLlow), through either Fuse 20 (the "clutch bypass fuse", which is not installed by the factory) or through the clutch pedal switch once you depress the clutch. Notice that Fuse 20 and the clutch pedal switch are in parallel circuits, both using YL/RD wires (YeLlow with a ReD stripe). That means that the starter relay coil will be energized anytime the ignition switch is rotated to the start position, and either or both the clutch pedal switch is engaged by pressing the clutch pedal or Fuse 20 is inserted. With Fuse 20 in place, you can start the TJ in gear, which is helpful if you are off-road on a hill. It's not installed by default for safety reasons.

Now, once the coil on the relay engages, it's magnetic field moves the switching mechanism. That's the dashed line running left-right inside the relay schematic above. When the mechanism moves, the switch on the right side of the relay schematic changes position, closing the circuit that supplies 12V to the starter solenoid. The starter solenoid performs two actions. First, it moves the drive gear on the starter outwards to engage the ring gear on the flywheel. Second, it connects the starter to battery 12V so that it starts spinning.

How the switch on the right side of the solenoid works is pretty straight-forward, if you study the schematic some more. Fuse 2 supplies 12V to the stationary side of the relay's switch via the PK/BK wire (Pink with a Black stripe). When the relay's switch is closed by the relay's coil energizing, that 12V goes through the switch to the BR wire (Brown) on the other side. That Brown wire goes through harness connector #104 ("C104") and on to the starter solenoid, which fires up your TJ.

To check your starter system, I'd suggest checking for all these conditions when the key is in the start position (you'll probably need a helper) and with the starter relay installed (you may have to get creative to get readings on your meter with the relay in place - perhaps remove the PDC and turn it upside down to touch the terminals):
  1. 12V on the YL/RD wire's terminal at the starter relay (if no, check the ignition switch and harness)
  2. Continuity with Batt - at the BR/LB wire's terminal at the starter relay (if no, check the harness)
  3. 12V on the PK/BK wire's terminal at the starter relay (if no, check Fuse 2 and the harness)
  4. 12V on the BR wire's terminal at the starter relay (if no, check the relay)
  5. 12V on the BR wire's terminal at the starter solenoid terminal on the starter (if no, check the harness)
You should also have 12V at the starter's largest terminal at all times (it's connected to the battery). If all of this checks out, it's likely a battery connection or ground issue. Never assume that those are good from just looking at them. It takes a near-perfect connection to transfer a couple-hundred amps when the starter motor is running. That's a lot of energy!

The manual has a helpful section on how relay terminals are numbered, but it's not exactly easy to understand. First, rather than saying what type of relay was used, they just show examples of two different configurations. Secondly, on one of them, they show the terminal labels from the perspective of looking at the relay socket in the PDC, but on the other it's shown from the perspective of looking at the relay, with the terminals pointing up. Therefore, one of them is a mirror image of the other. Here are both of them, and I've put the wire colors on it, so that you can relate it to the schematic. They are both edited so that the terminal arrangement is from the perspective of looking down at the relay socket in the PDC, as though the relay is not there. The one on the right is a mirror-image, so I've re-labelled terminals 85 and 86. Also, remember that if you turn the PDC upside down to probe the terminals, they will then be a mirror image of what's shown below. Note that the normally-closed terminal (87A) is not used for a starter relay, so that terminal slot is likely empty in the PDC.

View attachment 535378

Also, you mentioned that you couldn't figure out how to jumper the starter relay. It's pretty easy, and it might be the first thing to try. Remove the starter relay, and use a paper clip to carefully connect terminals 87 (BR) and 30 (PK/BK). What I mean by carefully is that the paper clip will become energized with 12V as soon as you touch terminal 30 (PK/BK). If it touches any metal, you'll get fireworks. Jumpering the relay terminals will simulate the starter relay energizing and closing the switch. If that starts the TJ, your relay is bad - either the coil is burned out, or the switch mechanism is "finky". Good luck. Post back with your discoveries.

Also, there don't appear to be any computers involved in the starter circuit, so I don't think your "NO BUS" problem is causing the starter problem. I am also unfamiliar with that error. I'm assuming it's what is displayed on the dash, where the odometer normally is?

Sab,

I was able to test the other 5 steps you mentioned easier than I thought. I already had the bottom of the PDC off to check the wiring last night, so I just wedged the lead of my multimeter in there and grounded the other end, and then watched as I tried starting. This is what I have come up with:

  1. 12V on the YL/RD wire's terminal at the starter relay (if no, check the ignition switch and harness) Yes, I have 12V when I turn the key to run
  2. Continuity with Batt - at the BR/LB wire's terminal at the starter relay (if no, check the harness) Yes, I have 12V at run, and it jumps to 12V right as the fuel pump kicks in .
  3. 12V on the PK/BK wire's terminal at the starter relay (if no, check Fuse 2 and the harness) Yes, this seemed constantly 12V even with the key off
  4. 12V on the BR wire's terminal at the starter relay (if no, check the relay) I do not have 12V here when cycling through the ignition
  5. 12V on the BR wire's terminal at the starter solenoid terminal on the starter (if no, check the harness) I do not have 12V here when cycling through the ignition

I think between these steps and my earlier reply to you, it's a safe bet to try a new relay?
 
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Sab,

I was able to test the other 5 steps you mentioned easier than I thought. I already had the bottom of the PDC off to check the wiring last night, so I just wedged the lead of my multimeter in there and grounded the other end, and then watched as I tried starting. This is what I have come up with:

  1. 12V on the YL/RD wire's terminal at the starter relay (if no, check the ignition switch and harness) Yes, I have 12V when I turn the key to run
  2. Continuity with Batt - at the BR/LB wire's terminal at the starter relay (if no, check the harness) Yes, I have 12V at run, and it jumps to 12V right as the fuel pump kicks in .
  3. 12V on the PK/BK wire's terminal at the starter relay (if no, check Fuse 2 and the harness) Yes, this seemed constantly 12V even with the key off
  4. 12V on the BR wire's terminal at the starter relay (if no, check the relay) I do not have 12V here when cycling through the ignition
  5. 12V on the BR wire's terminal at the starter solenoid terminal on the starter (if no, check the harness) I do not have 12V here when cycling through the ignition

I think between these steps and my earlier reply to you, it's a safe bet to try a new relay?

All symptoms point to a bad starter relay. #1 means the relay coil is getting energized. #2 means the relay coil is getting a ground. #3 should always be hot, as you found, and it means that there is 12V at the relay to energize the starter relay. #4 means the relay is not switching the input power from #3 to the starter solenoid, and #5 is due to #4 (no 12V at the relay output means no 12V at the other end).

Hopefully, a new relay gets you started again. Then you'll have to tackle the NO BUS problem.
 
1718733497995.png


Darn it, @mrblaine! In my defense, I never quit skimming because I remembered his previous post...
 
All symptoms point to a bad starter relay. #1 means the relay coil is getting energized. #2 means the relay coil is getting a ground. #3 should always be hot, as you found, and it means that there is 12V at the relay to energize the starter relay. #4 means the relay is not switching the input power from #3 to the starter solenoid, and #5 is due to #4 (no 12V at the relay output means no 12V at the other end).

Hopefully, a new relay gets you started again. Then you'll have to tackle the NO BUS problem.

I went and picked up a new relay, and no change. No crank, no start. I have the clutch switch bypassed with the fuse behind the glovebox. I tried starting it with both that and by holding the clutch in.

No luck.
 
Well, that's a conundrum. Looking back at Post #21, I'm guilty of skimming once again. For #2, you shouldn't have 12V there, ever. You were supposed to test for continuity to Battery Negative (ground). That's where the coil gets its ground. Check for continuity there - doesn't matter what position the ignition switch is in. It should always be ground. Just for the sake of certainty, what I mean by continuity is (nearly) zero resistance - a dead short. Set your meter to resistance in ohms, and touch one probe to Battery Neg and the other to the BR/LB terminal at the relay socket (terminal 85).

That's all I got right now. Bad ground at the relay coil...
 
Well, that's a conundrum. Looking back at Post #21, I'm guilty of skimming once again. For #2, you shouldn't have 12V there, ever. You were supposed to test for continuity to Battery Negative (ground). That's where the coil gets its ground. Check for continuity there - doesn't matter what position the ignition switch is in. It should always be ground. Just for the sake of certainty, what I mean by continuity is (nearly) zero resistance - a dead short. Set your meter to resistance in ohms, and touch one probe to Battery Neg and the other to the BR/LB terminal at the relay socket (terminal 85).

That's all I got right now. Bad ground at the relay coil...

Oh my mistake. I read your post too fast and missed how to get the read on #2. Here is my reading:

IMG_6601.jpeg
 
Oh my mistake. I read your post too fast and missed how to get the read on #2. Here is my reading:

View attachment 535643

It appears you have a bad ground. That's too much resistance - it should be less than 0.1 ohms. Take your two relays, and measure the coil resistance of each one. That would be across terminals 85 and 86. I don't know what it's supposed to be, but if you give me that, I can tell you how much voltage your losing in that bad ground.

You can also jumper from battery negative to terminal 85, and then try to start your TJ. If it starts with that jumpered, you need to look at your wiring harness from terminal 85 to ground, which would be the BR/LB wire.
 
It appears you have a bad ground. That's too much resistance - it should be less than 0.1 ohms. Take your two relays, and measure the coil resistance of each one. That would be across terminals 85 and 86. I don't know what it's supposed to be, but if you give me that, I can tell you how much voltage your losing in that bad ground.

You can also jumper from battery negative to terminal 85, and then try to start your TJ. If it starts with that jumpered, you need to look at your wiring harness from terminal 85 to ground, which would be the BR/LB wire.

With each of the relays in hand, the resistance across 85 to 86 is 0.07 ohms, on both.

When you say jumper the battery negative to terminal 85, I'm not certain what you mean. On your first reply you have the relay diagram showing which color wires (typed in red) are for which terminal. However, on mine it is backwards.

Yours shows:
Terminal 85: BL/LB
Terminal 86: TL/RD

Mine is:
Terminal 85: YL/RD
Terminal 86: BL/LB

I want to make sure I'm jumping the right wire from the negative side of the battery.

Edited to add pictures. You can see that terminal 85 will be on the left side once installed. That will push it into the cavity with the YL/RD wire. Why doesn't that align to what you have and what the service manual says? I definitely didn't go pulling wires out of this thing. The PDC came out as one unit and I bolted it directly onto the new fender.

IMG_6602.jpeg


IMG_6603.jpeg
 
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With each of the relays in hand, the resistance across 85 to 86 is 0.07 ohms, on both.
That can't be right. At that resistance, the coils would draw 171 amps at 12V. They should be several ohms. Are you sure you've identified the terminals correctly? Also, those relays may have a diode in parallel with the coil (to eliminate voltage spikes when the magnetic field collapses). Try re-doing the test and swap leads to see if you get a different reading with your red lead on one terminal or the other.

When you say jumper the battery negative to terminal 85, I'm not certain what you mean. On your first reply you have the relay diagram showing which color wires (typed in red) are for which terminal. However, on mine it is backwards.

Yours shows:
Terminal 85: BL/LB
Terminal 86: TL/RD

Mine is:
Terminal 85: YL/RD
Terminal 86: BL/LB

I want to make sure I'm jumping the right wire from the negative side of the battery.
Yes, it's good that you asked, first. Jumping the wrong one will result in a short. The wire colors should be the correct way. I added the wire color notes to the relay drawings based upon the tables alongside them. Both say Terminal 85 is coil ground. It's entirely possible that they copied and pasted that and didn't check. I'd say BR/LB is the ground, based on the schematic. However, just to be sure, what resistance do you get when you go from the BR/LB terminal to Battery Negative? If that is less than 0.1 ohm, then we're back to head-scratching because that means the coil has ground.

I'll be out of pocket for the majority of the afternoon...
 
That can't be right. At that resistance, the coils would draw 171 amps at 12V. They should be several ohms. Are you sure you've identified the terminals correctly? Also, those relays may have a diode in parallel with the coil (to eliminate voltage spikes when the magnetic field collapses). Try re-doing the test and swap leads to see if you get a different reading with your red lead on one terminal or the other.


Yes, it's good that you asked, first. Jumping the wrong one will result in a short. The wire colors should be the correct way. I added the wire color notes to the relay drawings based upon the tables alongside them. Both say Terminal 85 is coil ground. It's entirely possible that they copied and pasted that and didn't check. I'd say BR/LB is the ground, based on the schematic. However, just to be sure, what resistance do you get when you go from the BR/LB terminal to Battery Negative? If that is less than 0.1 ohm, then we're back to head-scratching because that means the coil has ground.

I'll be out of pocket for the majority of the afternoon...

The resistance from the BR/LB wire is the 0.77 that I mentioned previously. I did that test based on wire color, not terminal. To be sure I just tested it again and it was 0.76.

As for the relay resistance across 85/86, I just tested it again and I'll add pictures below. With the leads swapped, I got the same 0.07 each way.

IMG_6604.jpeg


IMG_6605.jpeg
 
The resistance from the BR/LB wire is the 0.77 that I mentioned previously. I did that test based on wire color, not terminal. To be sure I just tested it again and it was 0.76.
OK. So then I'm back to the coil ground problem theory. Jumper from BR/LB to Battery Negative and try to start it. Gotta go to my first meeting...
 
OK. So then I'm back to the coil ground problem theory. Jumper from BR/LB to Battery Negative and try to start it. Gotta go to my first meeting...

You sir, are a savior!!!

Grounded it and ran my milliameter between the starter solenoid and the negative side of the battery before trying to crank it, and it shot up to 12V. Hooked the brown wire to the starter and boom, started right up! Thank you so much!!

Next question: How best to trace this wire back to where the fault is?
 
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How best to trace this wire back to where the fault is?
Using continuity. There are three sections of harness to test:

1718747133491.png


You'll find locations of the connectors, splices, and grounds in the Factory Service Manual (FSM). Use that to figure out where they are. I would start with Ground G105. If it's a ring eye screwed to the body, remove it, clean it and the body contact point up with sandpaper, and reinstall it. Then check continuity from battery negative back to the BR/LB terminal on the starter relay. If you have less than 0.1 ohms, that ground point was the problem. If not, you have to dig into the harness.

Check continuity on each of the three sections above. The little numbers next to the double-chevrons are the cavity locations in the connectors. Look up the connector pin-out chart in the FSM to figure out which one it is (you can also go by wire colors, which are also in the connector charts). For each of the three sections, or any combination thereof, you should get less than 0.1 ohms, meaning you have continuity. If you can pin it down to one (or more - maybe there are multiple problems) section of harness having resistance that's too high, then you have to look at each end, where the terminals are crimped, and within the harness, for damage. Find it, repair it, and you'll be golden.

Good Luck!
 
Gormy:

I think your ground problem is also causing your NO BUS error! After thinking about it more, I decided to investigate what other things use that ground point (there are always multiple things connected to a ground point). If you look back at the wiring schematic I posted earlier today, the ground for the starter relay coil is G105. Looking at the schematic for that ground point, look what else grounds through it:
1718761508952.png


The ground is in the lower right of the schematic. Follow the wires up, and you'll see that there are two three ground points for the PCM, as well as the Data Link Connector (which is where you plug in an ODB2 code scanner).

I think fixing that ground will solve both problems! Also, the most likely scenario, given that you just built this TJ, is that the problem is at the ground point itself, so I'd check there first.
 
And here's where Ground G105 is located:
1718762157431.png


Note there should be two ground eyes there - G105 and G107. Make sure they are both there. If one is missing, it's probably G105. If they are both there, remove them, sand everything to clean, bare metal, and re-assemble it.
 
And looking at the schematics more, G107 is the main engine ground, going directly to Battery Negative. G105 is going to depend on G107 being good. Be sure to check G107 and the other end at the battery to make sure there isn't a problem there.
 
Back on the first post @Gormy mentioned an engine to frame ground. There should not be an engine to frame ground. The engine should ground directly to battery negative (through g107, as @sab mentioned). If the ground really is connected to the frame, I’d guess that is the problem.

Weird thing about TJs is there is no frame ground from the factory.
 
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