Need advice for Dana 44 high pinion with three Inch tubes for front axle build

[Wildman]

Is there any Benefit to Building to a JK or JL width Axle

If you THINK you might at some point go to a larger tire than a 35" then yes there are a lot of benefits to got to a JK width axle. When I first built my TJ I had thought that I would never want to go to anything larger than 35" tires. And of course 2 years later I was installing 38" tires. Many will say that there wasn't any reason but IMO my rig handled better and drove on the trails better with the larger tires.
The wider axle allows you to be able to turn tighter without the tires hitting the frame or swaybar or control arms.
My axle is 61.5" WMS and I wish now that I had built it to at least 63" if not 65".

I have a Ford Excursion and am very familiar with Unit Bearings and would much rather have a serviceable hub with manual lock-outs. I would like to keep this simple when it comes to brake, Rotors, Calipers and King pin / Ball Joints

I completely understand this. Then go with Ford or Chevy knuckles and go king pin with serviceable hubs.

 

[Gunnersmate]

If you THINK you might at some point go to a larger tire than a 35" then yes there are a lot of benefits to got to a JK width axle. When I first built my TJ I had thought that I would never want to go to anything larger than 35" tires. And of course 2 years later I was installing 38" tires. Many will say that there wasn't any reason but IMO my rig handled better and drove on the trails better with the larger tires.
The wider axle allows you to be able to turn tighter without the tires hitting the frame or swaybar or control arms.
My axle is 61.5" WMS and I wish now that I had built it to at least 63" if not 65".



I completely understand this. Then go with Ford or Chevy knuckles and go king pin with serviceable hubs.

What is "WMS"

 

[Gunnersmate]

If you THINK you might at some point go to a larger tire than a 35" then yes there are a lot of benefits to got to a JK width axle. When I first built my TJ I had thought that I would never want to go to anything larger than 35" tires. And of course 2 years later I was installing 38" tires. Many will say that there wasn't any reason but IMO my rig handled better and drove on the trails better with the larger tires.
The wider axle allows you to be able to turn tighter without the tires hitting the frame or swaybar or control arms.
My axle is 61.5" WMS and I wish now that I had built it to at least 63" if not 65".



I completely understand this. Then go with Ford or Chevy knuckles and go king pin with serviceable hubs.

I would Assume that JK Width Axles would simplify sourcing replacement axles and stubs should I ever break one

 

[Wildman]

What is "WMS"

Wheel mount surface to wheel mount surface.
So a TJ is 60" WMS where a JK is 65" WMS and from what I've heard the JL's are wider but I don't know what their width is.

I would Assume that JK Width Axles would simplify sourcing replacement axles and stubs should I ever break one

No not if you are running Dana 60 outers. Then your inner axle shafts are going to be custom. The stubs would be stock lengths.
It was one of the reasons at the time that I didn't go with the Dana 60 parts but if I'd know I was going to go to larger tires I would have done it anyhow.

 

[Gunnersmate]

Alright I Think I have an Idea of the direction I am headed with this
Axle tubes 3" OD 1/2" wall DOM (probably JK Width)
Gears 4.56
ARB Locker
Dana 60 Ford King Pin Knuckles and 3" Inner C's
High Steer / Crossover (undecided)
Jana 54
30/35 Spline Axles (undecided)
8 Lug Hubs Large Bearing
Manual Warn Lockouts
Rubicon Express Bracket Kit
Brakes (still sorting that out)
Black Rhino (Armory) Wheels 9.5x20
Toyo RT Tires 35/12.5/20

 

[Gunnersmate]

Wheel mount surface to wheel mount surface.
So a TJ is 60" WMS where a JK is 65" WMS and from what I've heard the JL's are wider but I don't know what their width is.



No not if you are running Dana 60 outers. Then your inner axle shafts are going to be custom. The stubs would be stock lengths.
It was one of the reasons at the time that I didn't go with the Dana 60 parts but if I'd know I was going to go to larger tires I would have done it anyhow.

I have never broken an Inner Axle, I have however broken some dana 44 outer Axles

 

[Wildman]

I have never broken an Inner Axle, I have however broken some dana 44 outer Axles

I've broken the u-joint which took out both the inner and out axles on both my Dana 30 & Dana 44. I've also broken the stub on my Ram Dana 60 front axle.

Edit: Sounds like a good build plan.

 

[Gunnersmate]

I have never broken an Inner Axle, I have however broken some dana 44 outer Axles

Do you see any problems / issues with my build list

 

[Gunnersmate]

I've broken the u-joint which took out both the inner and out axles on both my Dana 30 & Dana 44. I've also broken the stub on my Ram Dana 60 front axle.

Edit: Sounds like a good build plan.

So I should wind up with a dana 50 Ring & Pinion and Dana 60 Axles, C's Knuckles Spindles and Hubs and 3/4 ton / 1ton brakes and steering linkage, will i need to upgrade my steering gear box ???

 

[Wildman]

So I should wind up with a dana 50 Ring & Pinion and Dana 60 Axles, C's Knuckles Spindles and Hubs and 3/4 ton / 1ton brakes and steering linkage, will i need to upgrade my steering gear box ???

I don't know if you will or not. I don't think having the axle built the way you're saying will require it. I've had a PSC steering box since I swapped out my Dana 30 for the HP44.

Do you see any problems / issues with my build list

No as I said it sounds like a good build plan. I've looked at getting a Dynatrack HP44 housing without any C's and building a Hybrd 44/60 axle also.

Just to give you a price point: a empty Dynatrack HP44 housing with 3.25" axle tubes last year was $1900. So I'd be buying all the parts you're talking about if I was to do that.

 

[JDM]

Do you see any problems / issues with my build list

I think most people would recommend against the 20” wheels . Going with 17” would be much better on 35’s .

 

[Gunnersmate]

I think most people would recommend against the 20” wheels . Going with 17” would be much better on 35’s .

Yeah but if I decide on Larger tires later then I am good on the Wheel size besides I already have a set of the Toyo RTs in 20's they are take offs from one my F250's.

 

[Gunnersmate]

I don't know if you will or not. I don't think having the axle built the way you're saying will require it. I've had a PSC steering box since I swapped out my Dana 30 for the HP44.




No as I said it sounds like a good build plan. I've looked at getting a Dynatrack HP44 housing without any C's and building a Hybrd 44/60 axle also.

Just to give you a price point: a empty Dynatrack HP44 housing with 3.25" axle tubes last year was $1900. So I'd be buying all the parts you're talking about if I was to do that.

I can slip this by the wife if I Johnny Cash it together

 

[RHanna]

Someone correct me if I’m wrong but when I was looking at a hp44 from late 70s ford it looked like the only difference between the f250 and f150 was the hubs and the f250 hubs made the axle wider but the tubes between the 2 were the same width.

Something to keep in mind if you need to cut to jk width.

After all said and done how much stronger would this be compared to the Currie hp44 you were looking at?

 

[Gunnersmate]

Someone correct me if I’m wrong but when I was looking at a hp44 from late 70s ford it looked like the only difference between the f250 and f150 was the hubs and the f250 hubs made the axle wider but the tubes between the 2 were the same width.

Something to keep in mind if you need to cut to jk width.

After all said and done how much stronger would this be compared to the Currie hp44 you were looking at?

There are 2 Ford High Pinion Dana 44s that I have been able to find the major difference being, The High Pinon Dana 44 Heavy Duty (HPD44-HD) which incorporated 3 OD x 1/2 Wall DOM Axle tubes rated at 3500lb load. The High Pinion Dana 44 Non-HD (HPD44) has 2.75 inch Axle tubes rated at 3200 lb Load
(HPD44-HD) allows for the use of Dana 60 - 3 inch Inner C's and Kingpin Knuckles which are much stronger than Ball Joints
(HPD44-HD) allows for the use (with slight Modification) of a Dana 50 Ring and Pinion with 35 spline Inner Dana 60 Axles or the Dana 44 Ring and Pinion and 35 spline axles with no modification. An ARB Locker is available for either configuration.
(HPD44-HD) with the 3 inch inner C's and knuckles also allows for the use of 35 Spline Dana 60 Outer Axle Shafts
(HPD44-HD) Dana 60 - 3 inch Inner C's and GM Kingpin Knuckles uses the factory OEM GM Brakes, Calipers, Caliper Bracket, Hardware, Rotors, Spindles, Hubs (Manual Bearing style w/lockout or Part time Unit Bearing Style) and Outer axles from the 3/4 and 1 ton trucks.

So you can frankenstein a dana 50/60 Hybrid in a HPD44HD or Dana 44/60 Hybrid in a HPD44HD with the major difference being the Diameter of the ring gear and the Diameter of pinion shaft the 44 is slightly smaller than the 50 in regards to both and have full dana 60 from the Diff to the Hub With a little more Ground Clearance than a conventional Dana 60 and a little less weight than a conventional Dana 60
Also I Believe the Pinion Diameter is the same for D50 and Dana 60, I am not 100% sure on that dimension.

Plus you can get it by the wife much easier if you spread buying the parts out over time vs 5K upfront for a currie

So my build will be a HPD44HD with a D50 Ring and Pinion (4.56) ARB Locker 35 spline with GM Kingpin outer spindle, hub and brake assemblies, ( the Ford Kingpin Outer Brakes Spindles and Hubs parts are not as readily available as the GM parts. According to the "experts on the interwebs"

I will also build this axle to the JK/JL width 63 inches +/- so I can swap a rear Dana 44 from a JK/JL into the TJ and the widths for both will match

 

[Wildman]

Mr. N's Dana Info Page. Lots and lots of good information.

https://web.archive.org/web/20060520174647/http://77cj.littlekeylime.com/web_rs44.html

 

[Wildman]

There are 2 Ford High Pinion Dana 44s that I have been able to find the major difference being, The High Pinon Dana 44 Heavy Duty (HPD44-HD) which incorporated 3 OD x 1/2 Wall DOM Axle tubes rated at 3500lb load. The High Pinion Dana 44 Non-HD (HPD44) has 2.75 inch Axle tubes rated at 3200 lb Load
(HPD44-HD) allows for the use of Dana 60 - 3 inch Inner C's and Kingpin Knuckles which are much stronger than Ball Joints
(HPD44-HD) allows for the use (with slight Modification) of a Dana 50 Ring and Pinion with 35 spline Inner Dana 60 Axles or the Dana 44 Ring and Pinion and 35 spline axles with no modification. An ARB Locker is available for either configuration.
(HPD44-HD) with the 3 inch inner C's and knuckles also allows for the use of 35 Spline Dana 60 Outer Axle Shafts
(HPD44-HD) Dana 60 - 3 inch Inner C's and GM Kingpin Knuckles uses the factory OEM GM Brakes, Calipers, Caliper Bracket, Hardware, Rotors, Spindles, Hubs (Manual Bearing style w/lockout or Part time Unit Bearing Style) and Outer axles from the 3/4 and 1 ton trucks.

So you can frankenstein a dana 50/60 Hybrid in a HPD44HD or Dana 44/60 Hybrid in a HPD44HD with the major difference being the Diameter of the ring gear and the Diameter of pinion shaft the 44 is slightly smaller than the 50 in regards to both and have full dana 60 from the Diff to the Hub With a little more Ground Clearance than a conventional Dana 60 and a little less weight than a conventional Dana 60
Also I Believe the Pinion Diameter is the same for D50 and Dana 60, I am not 100% sure on that dimension.

Plus you can get it by the wife much easier if you spread buying the parts out over time vs 5K upfront for a currie

So my build will be a HPD44HD with a D50 Ring and Pinion (4.56) ARB Locker 35 spline with GM Kingpin outer spindle, hub and brake assemblies, ( the Ford Kingpin Outer Brakes Spindles and Hubs parts are not as readily available as the GM parts. According to the "experts on the interwebs"

I will also build this axle to the JK/JL width 63 inches +/- so I can swap a rear Dana 44 from a JK/JL into the TJ and the widths for both will match

I can agree with most of what you said but it might just be the way I'm reading it too.

Either axle (HP44HD or HP44) can accept the Jana 54 kit and both axles will require some grinding of the inside housing to clear the larger ring gear.
The same about running 35 spline axle shafts. Both axles can accept the 35 spline shafts. You MIGHT need different inner axle seals.

Some builds from Pirate 4x4.

https://www.pirate4x4.com/threads/building-a-608-9-front-end.1026121/
https://www.pirate4x4.com/threads/tj-Dana 44-w-Dana 60-outers-front-axle-pics.417688/
Here is a writeup from Carl Jantz (Who designed the Jana 54) on Pirate.

https://www.pirate4x4.com/threads/jana-54�-or-how-to-install-50-gears-in-your-hp44.948996/

 

[Gunnersmate]

I can agree with most of what you said but it might just be the way I'm reading it too.

Either axle (HP44HD or HP44) can accept the Jana 54 kit and both axles will require some grinding of the inside housing to clear the larger ring gear.
The same about running 35 spline axle shafts. Both axles can accept the 35 spline shafts. You MIGHT need different inner axle seals.

Some builds from Pirate 4x4.

https://www.pirate4x4.com/threads/building-a-608-9-front-end.1026121/
https://www.pirate4x4.com/threads/tj-Dana 44-w-Dana 60-outers-front-axle-pics.417688/
Here is a writeup from Carl Jantz (Who designed the Jana 54) on Pirate.

https://www.pirate4x4.com/threads/jana-54�-or-how-to-install-50-gears-in-your-hp44.948996/

Are the Dana 60 Inner C's and King Pin Knuckles available for the 2.75 Inch Diameter Tubes you could certainly retube a 2.75 Dana 44 with 3 inch tubes if you turned the tubes down to 2.75 +/- a few thou for a good interference fit or bore out the 2.75 diff to 3 inch

Wildman thanks for all the help getting me on the right track for this build certainly no expert but the only difference I found between the HPd44 and HPd44hd was the axle tube diameter and the load rating and the diff cover, I did not find 2.75 Inch Dana 60 inner C King Pin Set up for the 2.75 inch tube Diameter but I also did not look because mine is the Three inch Diameter Tube

Also I should note I do not believe you can build this as cheap as you could buy a currie for. I have a Mill and Lathe can do most of the machining my self.

 

[Wildman]

Are the Dana 60 Inner C's and King Pin Knuckles available for the 2.75 Inch Diameter Tubes you could certainly retube a 2.75 Dana 44 with 3 inch tubes if you turned the tubes down to 2.75 +/- a few thou for a good interference fit or bore out the 2.75 diff to 3 inch

There USE to be Dana 60 inner "C"s in a 2.75" offered by Reid Racing but they no longer offer them in that size. And no one else does either. The option would be to get and adapter made to go into the 3" C that necked it down to a 2.75".
The other option that makes things cheaper if you have a machinist that can do the work for you is to use the C's from a D50 TTB and weld them to your tube. It gives you ball joint knuckles which for this application isn't a issue.

So yes having the 2.75" tubes can limit you on some things but it isn't a brick wall you can't get around.

 

[Gunnersmate]

There USE to be Dana 60 inner "C"s in a 2.75" offered by Reid Racing but they no longer offer them in that size. And no one else does either. The option would be to get and adapter made to go into the 3" C that necked it down to a 2.75".
The other option that makes things cheaper if you have a machinist that can do the work for you is to use the C's from a D50 TTB and weld them to your tube. It gives you ball joint knuckles which for this application isn't a issue.

So yes having the 2.75" tubes can limit you on some things but it isn't a brick wall you can't get around.

Just for fun I wonder if the Diff can be machined to accept the 3 inch tubes, i may look around for a 2.75 HPD44 and try it. Might be a good way to have a spare or two if something grenades the housing it would aslo be cool to see whats needed to do a Rear Dana 44 Housing to Accept full floaters I am going to look at that also