Dual rate springs: JKS JSPEC dual rate versus Metalcloak dual rate

pagrey said:
I do kinda expect you to use three different shocks with no springs, just to keep things even.
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The best I could do is three different tunes on my fully compressed shocks. But I'm not spending the money on a shim kit anytime soon and most certainly not for this! 🤣
 
pagrey said:
Springs can make a small change, I think I even said fringe or something like that. I just dislike when people say they have zero effect.
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They don't make any difference whatsoever that you can perceive. None. Hence the zero effect comment. If you choose to not believe this, try the experiment and see for yourself. If you choose to stick to your beliefs with your theories, there is nothing more anyone can say to convince your otherwise and we'll part there on this topic.
 
So... without any shocks installed, you don't think you would feel a soft spring compress further or hit a bumpstop harder than a stiff spring? Using real life, off the shelf, rear coils, follow this example. Take an OME 2996 spring, rated at 250lbs and compare it to an OME 941 rated at 140lbs. Both springs were designed to provide approximately 2" of lift. But I understand there will be differences in lift due to the weight they can support. So to be fair, lets adjust bump stops to ensure any height difference is adjusted for. Now lets go for a ride. Do you think you will able to tell which set of springs you are riding on when you hit a big dip in the road. Do you think both sets of coils would impact your bump stops with the same force?

Lets look at it mathematically. Lets say we have 8" of travel 4 up and 4 down. In order to fully compress that 2996 you will require 2000lbs of force (250lbs x 4" x 2 springs = 2000lbs) . On the other hand that 941 will only require 1120lbs of force (140lbs x 4" x 2 shocks = 1120lbs). When you hit that dip in the road, which coil do you think will bottom out first or hit the hardest. The set of coils that requires 2000lbs to fully compress or the set of coils that requires 1120lbs to compress?

NOTE: (We could use the same example with shocks by utilizing shock extensions to ensure our up/down travel is the same)
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I realize there are other factors at play in a suspension system. I'm not saying that shocks don't matter. NOBODY is saying that shocks don't matter. Everyone agrees that shocks unquestionably make the biggest difference. I think everyone also agrees that a custom tuner can tune shocks to match any set of coils. That is not the argument. The argument is whether or not springs make any perceivable difference. Look at the springs in the example above. I don't think there would be much difficulty in telling the difference between a set of springs that requires 2000lbs to compress vs a set of springs that requires 1120lbs to compress. That is a noticeable difference.

I really don't have anything more to add here. I have changed coils while keeping the same shocks in 2 different vehicles. The first time I went from a dual rate coil to a linear rate coil. The second time I went from a linear rate coil to a dual rate coil. Both times I could feel a difference in how the coils behaved. Its a matter of the vehicles weight/spring rate. But then again, I can tell the difference between driving my LJ with a full tank of gas or an empty tank of gas. So maybe I am just more sensitive to body motion. I don't know.
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Fargo said:
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I think everyone also agrees that a custom tuner can tune shocks to match any set of coils. That is not the argument.
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You're still talking about springs like they matter, the simply don't. Do you simply ignore what I say? Don't understand English, or what?

How many times do I have to say that it doesn't matter if a custom tuner can match because they do NOT ask that question? Where is the fucking disconnect?

If you ever got a set of shocks that can be tuned and then got them tuned to work like they should, your head would just basically implode due to having to dump all the bullshit you thought you knew but didn't.
 
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Fargo said:
So... without any shocks installed, you don't think you would feel a soft spring compress further or hit a bumpstop harder than a stiff spring? Using real life, off the shelf, rear coils, follow this example. Take an OME 2996 spring, rated at 250lbs and compare it to an OME 941 rated at 140lbs. Both springs were designed to provide approximately 2" of lift. But I understand there will be differences in lift due to the weight they can support. So to be fair, lets adjust bump stops to ensure any height difference is adjusted for. Now lets go for a ride. Do you think you will able to tell which set of springs you are riding on when you hit a big dip in the road. Do you think both sets of coils would impact your bump stops with the same force?
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Lets look at it mathematically. Lets say we have 8" of travel 4 up and 4 down. In order to fully compress that 2996 you will require 2000lbs of force (250lbs x 4" x 2 springs = 2000lbs) . On the other hand that 941 will only require 1120lbs of force (140lbs x 4" x 2 shocks = 1120lbs). When you hit that dip in the road, which coil do you think will bottom out first or hit the hardest. The set of coils that requires 2000lbs to fully compress or the set of coils that requires 1120lbs to compress?

NOTE: (We could use the same example with shocks by utilizing shock extensions to ensure our up/down travel is the same)​
I realize there are other factors at play in a suspension system. I'm not saying that shocks don't matter. NOBODY is saying that shocks don't matter. Everyone agrees that shocks unquestionably make the biggest difference. I think everyone also agrees that a custom tuner can tune shocks to match any set of coils. That is not the argument. The argument is whether or not springs make any perceivable difference. Look at the springs in the example above. I don't think there would be much difficulty in telling the difference between a set of springs that requires 2000lbs to compress vs a set of springs that requires 1120lbs to compress. That is a noticeable difference.

I really don't have anything more to add here. I have changed coils while keeping the same shocks in 2 different vehicles. The first time I went from a dual rate coil to a linear rate coil. The second time I went from a linear rate coil to a dual rate coil. Both times I could feel a difference in how the coils behaved. Its a matter of the vehicles weight/spring rate. But then again, I can tell the difference between driving my LJ with a full tank of gas or an empty tank of gas. So maybe I am just more sensitive to body motion. I don't know.
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So much of this sounds familiar to things I argued many years ago.

I can tell you this from personal experience. Those differences you may or may not be perceiving are so insignificant compared to what a good shock tune accomplishes.
 
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jjvw said:
....Those differences you may or may not be perceiving are so insignificant compared to what a good shock tune accomplishes.
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I completely agree, they are insignificant compared to a good shock tune. I've never said otherwise. I've only said differences exist.

As stated above, there is a disconnect here somewhere. Whether it is in my understanding or in my ability to verbalize what I'm trying to say, I don't know.

Thanks for hearing me out.
 
Fargo said:
I completely agree, they are insignificant compared to a good shock tune. I've never said otherwise. I've only said differences exist.

As stated above, there is a disconnect here somewhere. Whether it is in my understanding or in my ability to verbalize what I'm trying to say, I don't know.

Thanks for hearing me out.
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The differences we may or may not have perceived are so insignificant that they simply don't matter and are not worth any effort.

I think we both agree that these differences are, at best, about as dramatic as a full or empty tank of gas. The only reason we are even aware of those miniscule differences is because we know we know our Jeeps and we know we just filled up the tank. No one else would ever know. I suspect there are similarly insignificant differences between a warm and cold day that we never notice because the rate of change is so slow between the extremes.

That is how little any of this matters.
 
jjvw said:
I argued many years ago
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or me just a yr or 2 ago. it's hard to negate things you think you know...

Blaine for sure, you and a few others have had the experience of incremental changes that brings about an understanding of how each individual piece and often it's placement effects the sys as a whole. not all of us have.
 
someguysjeep said:
or me just a yr or 2 ago. it's hard to negate things you think you know...

Blaine for sure, you and a few others have had the experience of incremental changes that brings about an understanding of how each individual piece and often it's placement effects the sys as a whole. not all of us have.
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All of that experience adds up to a lot of valuable perspective on what matters and what doesn't.

The other day I swapped in a very low mileage steering box. This eliminated 171k miles of steering wear and slop. That was a very dramatic and wonderful improvement in how nicely the Jeep drives and handles that blows away anything in comparison that I may or may not have felt from any of my past spring changes. But it still doesn't compare to what I have experienced with shocks.
 
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while y'all are kickin around lemme ask a real odd question. you know i got these funky struts, now if something was to happen and blew 1 out. maybe it pops an o-ring IDK..... it looses pressure...... i go to the basement.

now i can't tear into this thing on a trail and may not be able to drive out collapsed. so would you think it possible use a coil over spring and some caps/plates to capture it on the stem and might this then allow me the ability to get out.

i had thought, once 1 went down. i could jack up the rig pull the bottom end of the strut slip on a plate that would contact the struts body, the C/O spring, then a plate to trap the spring on.

think the BS would fly in an emergency? and i got deja vu so sorry if i've asked b4.
and b4 i get scalded for a ludicrous idea............emergency, blockin a trail or can't get to the trailer that has a cheap spare air shock and my nitrogen tank.
 
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Fargo said:
I completely agree, they are insignificant compared to a good shock tune. I've never said otherwise. I've only said differences exist.

As stated above, there is a disconnect here somewhere. Whether it is in my understanding or in my ability to verbalize what I'm trying to say, I don't know.

Thanks for hearing me out.
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You are still talking about springs.
 
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