Roll Cage Problem

[suicideking]

I got a custom roll cage done a few months ago and have some issues I need to resolve. So looking for opions. I had some disagreements with the fabricator during the installation process. He originally quoted one 'rough' price, but ended up raising it significantly while doing the work. His position was it was by the hour and he didn't realize it would take so long. I had him do all tube in the front and through the dash. That's not the problem though.

The problem is now with the way it was when he had me pick it up, it had the following issues:
1. Most major issue - The top B pillar bar is very close to my head. I'm 6' tall and even with a helmet on, it would be a huge risk of head and neck injury.
2. The harness bar is too low.
3. Seats lean too far back. Uncomfortable having to lean forward all the time, though I did get used to it somewhat.

After bringing these issues up with the fabricator and, for the most part, he didn't want to work with me again after the dispute over money. I asked him to fix the seating angle and he blew me off. Would not schedule a date.

I then had the seats tilted up to be more level. This made the seats better, but also put my head closer the the B pillar bar making it even more dangerous

Brought the issues up again with the fabricator asking him to fix everything. At one point, said I would take him to court if he won't fix it. Will just get another fabricator to fix his mistakes. He then called me up and chewed me out, but proposed his opinion of the solution to fix everything:

He suggested the only problem is the seats need to be mounted much lower. This would fix the harness bar being too low and get my head away from the top of the B pillar. He said the only reason the seats are too high (causing the other problems) is because when I bought the seats (PRP), I also bought their seat brackets to convert the OEM brackets. Said he would've fabbed up brackets that were lower, but knew I was running out of money and pissed at him.

Of course, he's going to charge me around $600+ to do the seat brackets and has around a 3 month or more wait. In the meantime, I don't feel safe driving my Jeep. Though his solution does make sense and would be much less expensive than having the cage repaired or even thrown in the trash and replaced.

Interested in opinions on different options. I can add more pictures later.

 

[bty34]

I don't see any way to get those seats low enough to get the harness bar in the right spot.

The b pillar does look lower than factory. Looks like it has sleeves for factory door surrounds. Do they fit up?

 

[suicideking]

I don't see any way to get those seats low enough to get the harness bar in the right spot.

The b pillar does look lower than factory. Looks like it has sleeves for factory door surrounds. Do they fit up?

Yes, the OEM soft top fits. It's a bit tight an wonky, but with some wrestling, all the windows and door surrounds still work.

 

[06lj]

I have no experience with them but Genright sells seat brackets that claim to be able to be adjusted 1" below the stock height. I'm not sure what year they are using for their measurements as the later seats are much lower. I'm sure they could get you some measurements if you gave them a call. Or perhaps there are some forum members who have used them.
https://genright.com/shop-by-vehicl...6e08cd7450cbbdddc64c6cf2e8891f6d48747c6d56d2c

 

[Mike_H]

Is he mounting the seats to the dang skid plate? I don't see how he can get them low enough, and still work for you. I also don't see a lot of triangulation there...but I'm not a cage designer.

 

[suicideking]

Is he mounting the seats to the dang skid plate? I don't see how he can get them low enough, and still work for you. I also don't see a lot of triangulation there...but I'm not a cage designer.

Does make me wonder if he knows he messed up. Might be ok if I wasn't 6' tall. He also started saying even at 6', I probably have a tall torso area. Claims he used to build Ultra4 cars and people liked the seats low. I'm skeptical, but figure if it goes to small claims court, I'm supposed to give him a chance to fix it first. Just don't want to pay him another $600+ if it won't really help much.

 

[suicideking]

I have no experience with them but Genright sells seat brackets that claim to be able to be adjusted 1" below the stock height. I'm not sure what year they are using for their measurements as the later seats are much lower. I'm sure they could get you some measurements if you gave them a call. Or perhaps there are some forum members who have used them.
https://genright.com/shop-by-vehicl...6e08cd7450cbbdddc64c6cf2e8891f6d48747c6d56d2c

I'm hoping someone on here has a Genright and can get me some measurements. Figured worst case scenario is I would have to trash the cage and replace with a Genright. Might be able to save the front dash section which is why I didn't go with Genright in the first place since they use stancions.

 

[bty34]

The factory door surrounds more or less dictate the a to b spreader height. With a continuous a to c tube and a straight tube connecting the b pillars, you lose about 1 1/2" of headroom compared to the stock arrangement.

 

[Mike_H]

Does make me wonder if he knows he messed up. Might be ok if I wasn't 6' tall. He also started saying even at 6', I probably have a tall torso area. Claims he used to build Ultra4 cars and people liked the seats low. I'm skeptical, but figure if it goes to small claims court, I'm supposed to give him a chance to fix it first. Just don't want to pay him another $600+ if it won't really help much.

Head clearance aside, I think that spreader bar on the b pillar needs to come out and be raised. Your belts are not supposed to go through the seat and down like that. Moving that spreader bar higher and lowering the seat an inch or so may get you where you need to be.

I still don’t like the lack of triangulation. Seems like I normally see the roof area between the a pillar and b pillar (where you have a single bar) triangulated to prevent the whole assembly from shifting diagonally and collapsing like a house of cards.

 

[mjbcomp]

No one has said it yet but that cage looks amazing. Love all the triangulation. Assuming lowering the seat positions won't make you feel like you're sitting too low i'd go that rout. I wouldn't do any cutting or reworking the cage. Lowering those PRP seats seems to be the best option. And you can always fabricate some kind of bracket to brace against the back of the seat if needed or weld in another cross bar from driver B side to passenger that is closer to the upright seating position you want. But obviously you need to get the height of the seat dialed in first.

 

[jjvw]

No one has said it yet but that cage looks amazing. Love all the triangulation. ...

Where is all this triangulation?

 

[mrblaine]

I got a custom roll cage done a few months ago and have some issues I need to resolve. So looking for opions. I had some disagreements with the fabricator during the installation process. He originally quoted one 'rough' price, but ended up raising it significantly while doing the work. His position was it was by the hour and he didn't realize it would take so long. I had him do all tube in the front and through the dash. That's not the problem though.

The problem is now with the way it was when he had me pick it up, it had the following issues:
1. Most major issue - The top B pillar bar is very close to my head. I'm 6' tall and even with a helmet on, it would be a huge risk of head and neck injury.
2. The harness bar is too low.
3. Seats lean too far back. Uncomfortable having to lean forward all the time, though I did get used to it somewhat.

After bringing these issues up with the fabricator and, for the most part, he didn't want to work with me again after the dispute over money. I asked him to fix the seating angle and he blew me off. Would not schedule a date.

I then had the seats tilted up to be more level. This made the seats better, but also put my head closer the the B pillar bar making it even more dangerous

Brought the issues up again with the fabricator asking him to fix everything. At one point, said I would take him to court if he won't fix it. Will just get another fabricator to fix his mistakes. He then called me up and chewed me out, but proposed his opinion of the solution to fix everything:

He suggested the only problem is the seats need to be mounted much lower. This would fix the harness bar being too low and get my head away from the top of the B pillar. He said the only reason the seats are too high (causing the other problems) is because when I bought the seats (PRP), I also bought their seat brackets to convert the OEM brackets. Said he would've fabbed up brackets that were lower, but knew I was running out of money and pissed at him.

Of course, he's going to charge me around $600+ to do the seat brackets and has around a 3 month or more wait. In the meantime, I don't feel safe driving my Jeep. Though his solution does make sense and would be much less expensive than having the cage repaired or even thrown in the trash and replaced.

Interested in opinions on different options. I can add more pictures later.

View attachment 554982

View attachment 554983

View attachment 554985





View attachment 554984

When I suggested you get an A pillar through the dash, this is what I had in mind with the tube pushed as tight into the corner as possible. No trimming of the plastic part of the dash that bolts to the jamb.

 

[psrivats]

No one has said it yet but that cage looks amazing. Love all the triangulation. Assuming lowering the seat positions won't make you feel like you're sitting too low i'd go that rout. I wouldn't do any cutting or reworking the cage. Lowering those PRP seats seems to be the best option. And you can always fabricate some kind of bracket to brace against the back of the seat if needed or weld in another cross bar from driver B side to passenger that is closer to the upright seating position you want. But obviously you need to get the height of the seat dialed in first.

Are you looking at the same cage rest of of us are !?

@suicideking ... I don't see how lowering the seats can fix your problem. You are not driving an ultra4 car. Even if it partially works, it'll create another problem in terms of visibility and seating position that won't be ideal long term. I recommend taking it to another competent place to get it fixed or just sell the entire contraption as is with a "caveat emptor" note, get whatever money you can get back and move on (or start over if you really want a cage again). Taking him to court will be messy but that's another option since this is clearly not done correctly and you'll have to pay more money to get it fixed.

(Says the guy who was kinda screwed by 2 trans shops and all he did was complain on the board)

 

[mrblaine]

Does make me wonder if he knows he messed up. Might be ok if I wasn't 6' tall. He also started saying even at 6', I probably have a tall torso area. Claims he used to build Ultra4 cars and people liked the seats low. I'm skeptical, but figure if it goes to small claims court, I'm supposed to give him a chance to fix it first. Just don't want to pay him another $600+ if it won't really help much.

None of that matters. When you build a custom cage, it has to fit the vehicle, the driver, and fulfill the safety requirements at the most basic level. There are rules that have to be followed with how far the B pillar can be from the top of your helmet and how close it can be. This one does neither, the top of the B pillar is way too low.

The height of the harness bar can ONLY be determined after the seats are in, angled properly for your desired seating position, and the harnesses in place to be measured from the tops of your shoulders. That angle can not be more than 20 degrees or less than 0 and optimally, less than 10 from the top of your shoulders to the top of the bar. As per the literature I gave you, that is irrespective of the openings in the seat back.

If he built Ultra 4 cars, then he knows this or all of his cars came back to be fixed after failing the tech inspection.

I added a harness bar to the black one. I parked the owner's ass in the seat in his normal driving position, buckled him in, ran the straps through the holes in the seats and then measured the angle to the top of the bar to get the position correct. Once I had the height, I built the bar and bolted it in.

To be very clear, this "cage" is purely for looks. He opted to delete the X brace behind the seats and a few other things that would get this closer to something proper. He knows it, he has been warned appropriately not to trust his safety to it and he has made the choice to have looks over function. Personally, I would never have ditched the factory seat belts.

 

[mrblaine]

No one has said it yet but that cage looks amazing. Love all the triangulation. Assuming lowering the seat positions won't make you feel like you're sitting too low i'd go that rout. I wouldn't do any cutting or reworking the cage. Lowering those PRP seats seems to be the best option. And you can always fabricate some kind of bracket to brace against the back of the seat if needed or weld in another cross bar from driver B side to passenger that is closer to the upright seating position you want. But obviously you need to get the height of the seat dialed in first.

Are you sure you're looking at the same cage we are?

 

[mrblaine]

The factory door surrounds more or less dictate the a to b spreader height. With a continuous a to c tube and a straight tube connecting the b pillars, you lose about 1 1/2" of headroom compared to the stock arrangement.

It is far more than 1 1/2". With the soft top on, there is easily what looks like 6" from the top of the center bar up to the fabric. There is a reason TJ "cages" suck to build and getting all that crap high enough to clear your head is most of it.

 

[CMBD]

I'm no expert, but I have been around. And I have built stuff.

That design doesn't reflect having built (good) U4 stuff.

You cant work around the B pillar being next to your head. The harness bar needs to be pretty much the same height as the top of the shoulders. And triangulation is cool.

My thought on cage design is, what is best is only limited by how much you don't want to be inconvenienced.

 

[suicideking]

Sounds like this cage is a total loss. Maybe the front bars that go through the dash could be re-used in another cage.

Moving forward, I can request the fabricator refund all of my money, or build me a cage that is usable. I'm assuming he will not choose either of those options and small claims court will be an option.

The next issue is getting it to where it's safe to drive again. Estimates for a Genright pre-fab cage installed were around $7000. I don't really want to spend that kind of money again, but don't see many other options. Now that the TJ has been out of production for a while, there aren't many cage options to choose from.

I could also try to find an OEM bar/cage. I do have the seat belts still, but would have to find a way to get them mounted and setup with the PRP seats.

 

[mrblaine]

Sounds like this cage is a total loss. Maybe the front bars that go through the dash could be re-used in another cage.

Moving forward, I can request the fabricator refund all of my money, or build me a cage that is usable. I'm assuming he will not choose either of those options and small claims court will be an option.

The next issue is getting it to where it's safe to drive again. Estimates for a Genright pre-fab cage installed were around $7000. I don't really want to spend that kind of money again, but don't see many other options. Now that the TJ has been out of production for a while, there aren't many cage options to choose from.

I could also try to find an OEM bar/cage. I do have the seat belts still, but would have to find a way to get them mounted and setup with the PRP seats.

I have a stock B-pillar and rear section if you need it. May even be able to dig up some streamer bars in a pinch.

The reason that Poly retained the B pillar is there is nothing wrong with it. It fits, it has good head room, and it has all the attachment points for the seat belts already done. It is also stronger than the hoop that was used on the one you had built. If you study how they did it, note that the bars over the seats bend upward starting at the highest point they can push the A pillar connector. Or put another way, the bars go forward off of the B pillar parallel to the streamer bars until they hit the A pillar connector with a downward bend.

Also note that the A pillar connector is far enough back to operate the visors and the hard/soft top latches without cutting them off like yours are.

The issue is always the same. By the time you account for all the nuance that is required to get something in the rig that allows the dash to be worked on, head room, and some sort of brace behind the seats, it winds up looking like a wonky fucking mess. If you make it look like a more traditional "cage", then the inconvenience factor is stupidly high and unsatisfactory. There are many things wrong and incorrect about this red one except for convenience. It works around all the problems that make it less than fun to be in while driving, but it solves very few of the problems that make it safe enough to trust.

You can however, use it to figure out some changes for the repair or replacement of yours. In the first pic, the bars over the seats are above the top of the windshield frame. If they are not that way, they are too low and that is also one of the things that makes a TJ cage look like crap.

 

[mrblaine]

BTW- I installed the "cage" in the black one. It is one that has little tabs that fit into slots in the opposing tube for exact location. I had very serious discussions ahead of time, I said I do not do these, I will not redesign one to make it work because I don't want to do it at all. When we were done, the dash bar was 1/2" low on one side. I showed the how and why, he was not happy but did pay me to fix it.