Hypothetical question regarding CCD / PCI BUS and a V8 swap

[Jamison C]

So the TJ operates off of two different data bus PCMs to talk to the gauges. 97-00 was CCD, and 01-06 was PCI.

So hypothetically, if I were to swap in a V8 from a Chrysler vehicle using PCI bus, but wanted to run it off of a PCM using CCD bus, would the sensors and PCM communicate? Or do the sensors need to be specific to the data bus?

Reason for asking is I’m looking at a 2000 Wrangler (using CCD bus) that would be the perfect candidate for a swap, but by 2000 the Dodge Ram, Dodge Durango, Dodge Dakota, and the Jeep Grand Cherokee all made the switch to PCI. Despite not doing emissions testing here, I still want to keep it legal and not use an older engine.

And no, despite being a great engine, I’m not going the LS route, so no “wHy NoT SwAp In An AlUmInUm Ls It’S bEtTeR” comments please I’m not trying to 1/4 mile this thing lol.

 

[86gtconv]

Did you ever find an answer/solution?

 

[pc1p]

So the TJ operates off of two different data bus PCMs to talk to the gauges. 97-00 was CCD, and 01-06 was PCI.

So hypothetically, if I were to swap in a V8 from a Chrysler vehicle using PCI bus, but wanted to run it off of a PCM using CCD bus, would the sensors and PCM communicate? Or do the sensors need to be specific to the data bus?

Reason for asking is I’m looking at a 2000 Wrangler (using CCD bus) that would be the perfect candidate for a swap, but by 2000 the Dodge Ram, Dodge Durango, Dodge Dakota, and the Jeep Grand Cherokee all made the switch to PCI. Despite not doing emissions testing here, I still want to keep it legal and not use an older engine.

The Magnum engine is still a very viable candidate and if I didn't find a Hemi/65RFE for super cheap and in great shape, I would have certainly went the built Magnum route. While they aren't the cheapest engines to make MAX POWAH!!, they are solid options for a wheeling rig. My RamCharger with a built Magnum stroker has scared plenty of people already and it isn't even tuned yet...

Anyways, back to your question. There were actually 2 different communication protocols in the TJ: 96-99 was CCD, 00-06 was PCI. The various Mopars you listed above also made the switch, but the years of the changes don't necessarily match up with the TJ (typical Dodge). I've done a few Magnum swaps (not into a Jeep though) and am fairly familiar with the different year Ram harnesses/ECMs since that is my go-to (they're easier to find!).

[Edited above to correct misinformation copied from another reference - thanks @Dogger84]

For the Ram, 96-98 is a mix of SCI-only/analog (for diagnostics and gauges respectively). In late-1998 the Rams started making the transition to CCD. These are referred to by many as the "98.5 changes". The transition to PCI didn't happen until 2002-2003 transition with the 5.9 Magnum trucks retaining the JTEC w/PCI, while the Hemis got the NGC w/PCI (it wasn't until 2005 that the Ram NGC's started using CANbus). With the Jeeps and Durangos, the years vary and you'll need to dig through some info there as I don't really mess with them enough to know the differences as well.

Your swap would be fairly straightforward but you need to confirm what protocol your vehicle has as any transition-year rig should be double checked. I just worked on an early 98 Ram harness (marked Jan 1998 on the ECM if I recall correctly) that was a mix of 98 and 98.5 changes. I would recommend a Ram ECM as these are the least likely to have SKIM issues (though there are ways around it).

To keep yours emissions legal, you'd have to use a 2000 model year ECM (or newer), which will likely be CCD if it's from a Ram. You could find a 1996-99 gauge cluster (you can pick up mine if you want one cheap) and the harness for it. The easiest way to verify what communication bus protocol the ECM has is to look at the wiring on the C3 connector (you will have a twisted pair for CCD and PCI will be a single wire). Your 2000 fuel system will work fine for those year Magnum motors and you'll be able to make all the emissions equipment work together nicely (just use your factory EVAP purge).

What trans are you thinking of using? The AX is a good option if keeping it a manual trans; all you would need is a Dakota 3.9L bellhousing. For an auto trans, the factory 46RE is a good option and works really well with some very minor tweaks/improvements to help with flow. Note that on the auto transmission, the "Dodge" versions all have the starter on the driver-side. For the "Jeep" versions, the starter is on the passenger side. There is only a single year for the Jeep-46RE and those came out of a 1998 5.9L Grand Cherokee (aka. the "niners"). The cores are hard to find but available. These will allow you to use Grand Cherokee headers and have slightly more room underneath. If you use a Dodge-46RE, I recommend you use a 1" BL and Ram shorty-headers due to clearance of the firewall (fits fine otherwise).

 

[Chris]

Why not swap in an aluminum LS? It's better

 

[pc1p]

Why not swap in an aluminum LS? It's better

#Hemiswapeverything

 

[Chris]

#Hemiswapeverything

For sure, if it’s a 392

 

[pc1p]

For sure, if it’s a 392

Sure, if you like over-spending and want the hassle of dealing with piecing together proper front covers and accessory setups

With a set of take-off, cleaned up SRT manifolds and a 91-Octane tune, these are pushing 420hp on stock junkyard pulls... Throw in a halfway respectable cam and they're hitting 480hp while getting 16-18 MPG.

Engine Masters (episode 79) hit 505 hp @ 6400 RPM with 463 ft-lbs @ 4600 RPM with a factory 5.7, a Holley Terminator X, a cam, and some long-tubes (they killed some low end torque on the curve but still had more peak TQ).

https://www.motortrendondemand.com/detail/engine-masters-go-to-school-on-the-gen-iii-hemi/1135655/

 

[Chris]

Sure, if you like over-spending and want the hassle of dealing with piecing together proper front covers and accessory setups

With a set of take-off, cleaned up SRT manifolds and a 91-Octane tune, these are pushing 420hp on stock junkyard pulls... Throw in a halfway respectable cam and they're hitting 480hp while getting 16-18 MPG.

Engine Masters (episode 79) hit 505 hp @ 6400 RPM with 463 ft-lbs @ 4600 RPM with a factory 5.7, a cam, and some long-tubes (they killed some low end torque on the curve but still had more peak TQ).

https://www.motortrendondemand.com/detail/engine-masters-go-to-school-on-the-gen-iii-hemi/1135655/

I’m not putting any V8 in a TJ as it doesn’t fit my needs or use case.

But as far as Mopar engines go, the 6.4 is worth it for the sound alone

That being said, the most fun I have ever had in a V8 wasn’t my Hellcat believe it or not. It was my 600 WHP naturally aspirated LS7 in my C6 Z06 Vette.

That LS7 was the most sublime thing I’ve ever owned in terms of V8s. Of course this has no place in a TJ, but I am way off topic now anyways.

 

[pc1p]

I’m not putting any V8 in a TJ as it doesn’t fit my needs or use case.

Boring. As. F*%$.

I'm going to have you eating your words when we take a ride up to wheel Sunflower or Payette

Though honestly, if mine were an automatic, I would have likely left it alone (for a little while at least). For me, it made no sense to spend 50-60% of what a V8/Auto swap would cost just to get an automatic trans - and still be stuck with a Massey Ferguson motor

But as far as Mopar engines go, the 6.4 is worth it for the sound alone

That being said, the most fun I have ever had in a V8 wasn’t my Hellcat believe it or not. It was my 600 WHP naturally aspirated LS7 in my C6 Z06 Vette.

I assume you meant the sound of the 6.2L Supercharged motor (and not the NA 392 Apache motors). That S/C whine makes me giddy as all hell. A guy that lives in my community has a TrackHawk Grand Cherokee and I get a little woody every time I hear to pull out onto McDowell Rd.

Realistically, anything sounds better than a tractor motor

 

[Chris]

Boring. As. F*%$.

I'm going to have you eating your words when we take a ride up to wheel Sunflower or Payette

Though honestly, if mine were an automatic, I would have likely left it alone (for a little while at least). For me, it made no sense to spend 50-60% of what a V8/Auto swap would cost just to get an automatic trans - and still be stuck with a Massey Ferguson motor



I assume you meant the sound of the 6.2L Supercharged motor (and not the NA 392 Apache motors). That S/C whine makes me giddy as all hell. A guy that lives in my community has a TrackHawk Grand Cherokee and I get a little woody every time I hear to pull out onto McDowell Rd.

Realistically, anything sounds better than a tractor motor

I may get to the point where I start trailering mine to spots that are further away depending. But that being said, I’ve driven it an hour each way as is and it doesn’t bother me one bit. As cool as a V8 is, for my needs I just don’t see it as being necessary.

Actually the 6.4 sounds really damn good as well. The 6.2 in the Hellcat sounds even more amazing. I remember how much my Hellcat would whine and it made it hard to stay off the throttle

 

[pc1p]

I may get to the point where I start trailering mine to spots that are further away depending. But that being said, I’ve driven it an hour each way as is and it doesn’t bother me one bit. As cool as a V8 is, for my needs I just don’t see it as being necessary.

Actually the 6.4 sounds really damn good as well. The 6.2 in the Hellcat sounds even more amazing. I remember how much my Hellcat would whine and it made it hard to stay off the throttle

Trailering?? When did this turn into a JK Forum!!!

And "necessary"? When did that become a thing?? lol It's like saying a top is "necessary" for highway driving or winter wheeling...

On a serious note, the 6.4 sounds fantastic indeed - hell every Hemi sounds good, even the stock 5.7L in the Rebel or R/T cars. I have 2 buddies with Scat-Pak Challengers with some mods and they sound wicked. My coworker with a 6.2 SRT says the S/C whine is his "too much fuel buzzer"

 

[Jamison C]

I appreciate all the info but I posted this thread over a year ago

 

[pc1p]

I appreciate all the info but I posted this thread over a year ago

Talk about a zombie post!!

I saw @86gtconv comment, saw yours was in Jan and didn't even think about the year... Well now you know for when you get your next TJ and want to V8 swap it

 

[Dogger84]

The Magnum engine is still a very viable candidate and if I didn't find a Hemi/65RFE for super cheap and in great shape, I would have certainly went the built Magnum route. While they aren't the cheapest engines to make MAX POWAH!!, they are solid options for a wheeling rig. My RamCharger with a built Magnum stroker has scared plenty of people already and it isn't even tuned yet...

Anyways, back to your question. There were actually 3 different communication protocols in the TJ: 96-99 was CCD, 00-04 was PCI, and 05-06 was CANbus. The various Mopars you listed above also made the switch, but the years of the changes don't necessarily match up with the TJ (typical Dodge). I've done a few Magnum swaps (not into a Jeep though) and am fairly familiar with the different year Ram harnesses/ECMs since that is my go-to (they're easier to find!).

For the Ram, 96-98 is a mix of SCI-only/analog (for diagnostics and gauges respectively). In late-1998 the Rams started making the transition to CCD. These are referred to by many as the "98.5 changes". The transition to PCI didn't happen until 2002-2003 transition with the 5.9 Magnum trucks retaining the JTEC w/PCI, while the Hemis got the NGC w/PCI (it wasn't until 2005 that the Ram NGC's started using CANbus). With the Jeeps and Durangos, the years vary and you'll need to dig through some info there as I don't really mess with them enough to know the differences as well.

Your swap would be fairly straightforward but you need to confirm what protocol your vehicle has as any transition-year rig should be double checked. I just worked on an early 98 Ram harness (marked Jan 1998 on the ECM if I recall correctly) that was a mix of 98 and 98.5 changes. I would recommend a Ram ECM as these are the least likely to have SKIM issues (though there are ways around it).

To keep yours emissions legal, you'd have to use a 2000 model year ECM (or newer), which will likely be CCD if it's from a Ram. You could find a 1996-99 gauge cluster (you can pick up mine if you want since I'm going to a 05-06 CANbus cluster with my Hemi) and the harness for it. The easiest way to verify what communication bus protocol the ECM has is to look at the wiring on the C3 connector (you will have a twisted pair for CCD and PCI will be a single wire). Your 2000 fuel system will work fine for those year Magnum motors and you'll be able to make all the emissions equipment work together nicely (just use your factory EVAP purge).

What trans are you thinking of using? The AX is a good option if keeping it a manual trans; all you would need is a Dakota 3.9L bellhousing. For an auto trans, the factory 46RE is a good option and works really well with some very minor tweaks/improvements to help with flow. Note that on the auto transmission, the "Dodge" versions all have the starter on the driver-side. For the "Jeep" versions, the starter is on the passenger side. There is only a single year for the Jeep-46RE and those came out of a 1998 5.9L Grand Cherokee (aka. the "niners"). The cores are hard to find but available. These will allow you to use Grand Cherokee headers and have slightly more room underneath. If you use a Dodge-46RE, I recommend you use a 1" BL and Ram shorty-headers due to clearance of the firewall (fits fine otherwise).

Not correct on 05-06 TJ they are also PCI bus as no TJ ever used CAN bus

The 07 and up JK are CAN bus

In 05 the TJ did change from a JTEC plus PCM to a NGC PCM but stayed PCI bus

 

[pc1p]

Not correct on 05-06 TJ they are also PCI bus as no TJ ever used CAN bus

The 07 and up JK are CAN bus

In 05 the TJ did change from a JTEC plus PCM to a NGC PCM but stayed PCI bus

Correct - I thought I went back and fixed this (I did on my Hemi swap resources page). I was basically copy+pasting the Hotwires reference (which we discussed on a different thread was incorrect but updated/corrected lately). I think the JTEC —> NGC change is often assumed to be when communication protocols went to CANbus, but even Dodge/Hemi motors that went to NGC stayed PCI for a few years...

I just corrected it so as to break the misinformation loop. Thanks for the good eyes

 

[NashvilleTJ]

OP - Just do what I did. Slap this on the side, and then just never open the hood....