TheFrenchMan
TJ Enthusiast
Yes it is. With a spartan/lunchbox locker in the front in 4WD your front tires no longer spin at different speeds. This causes the front end to want to go straight on tight turns and push the front end forwards instead of turning. If I put it into 2WD I'm able to turn with no problems because the front locker disengages. This is why a selectable locker in the front will be in my near future.
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Selectable needs to go in the rear, auto up front. You're welcome to come and show me on pavement that there is an iota of difference in turning radius under power using the rear auto locker under torque. The rear axle being locked is what pushes the front straight. I also know this from having an Atlas and doing front digs with the locker on, it always turns tighter with the rear unlocked.
TheFrenchMan
TJ Enthusiast
If this was the case then why can I turn normally in 2WD with my rear auto locker? My friend has a rubicon and he always disengages the front locker on tight turns and it makes it turn easier.
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JFjeld
TJ Enthusiast
- Joined
- Dec 10, 2015
- Messages
- 125
Thanks for the explanation, Blaine. I've been extremely happy in both the performance of my lockers and the customer service from OX and haven't been privvy to the inside perspective you've had. I'll continue to support and recommend their lockers; having no experience with their U-joints.
I do find it somewhat humorous that you previously suggested they offer air and electrical shift options and they wanted no part of it. I understand now they offer those very options. They must've listened, after all. I am further curious as to your above comment about the problematic cables. I still use the manual cable actuation and haven't had issues; other than replacing a cable that broke loose from where I had secured it (faulty tie), and getting clobbered between my control arm mount and a boulder. For what reason do you consider the cables themselves problematic?
Any time you care to swing by, I'm more than pleased to give you a lesson in locker disengagement and show you why what your friend is doing doesn't work and what he thinks is happening is all in his head. You are also overlooking that you have figured out how to automatically make the rig go around a corner on the street by coasting without power. Try it under power at slow speed in a parking lot with the front driveshaft pulled and there is exactly zero difference in turning radius.
I see ARB folks all the time on an obstacle where they can't turn flip the locker switch to turn off the front. They don't turn any further and the reason is very simple and that is how much pressure it takes to keep the locker engaged. If you jack up one front tire and lock the axle and then push forward or back with ONE finger on the tire tread and then hit the disengage button, the tire won't move because all it takes is the pressure from ONE finger to keep the locking clutch dogs engaged. You have to release the pressure for it to unlock. Get on an obstacle with the tires turned and the differential rate is way more than enough to keep them locked and I don't care how many times you hit that little switch, all you're doing is wasting air and wearing out the compressor.
Well, you sorta did have an issue and it is one that is rarely unavoidable due to the extreme stiffness of the cable and the difficulties in routing them. That and the one for the rear is absolutely goofy in how it has to get to the diff cover and I'm not sure that it is more or less goofy than the mess that goes around the inner C on the front.
That and for the first 5 years of production the cables were the number one problem in how the locker worked due to how sensitive they were to the adjustments. Cables in that application are highly flawed because of where the shift fork exits the cover. They should have spent the time and designed a vertical shift fork arrangement so the cable could be at the top of the diff or at least higher than the centerline of the axle tube.
TheFrenchMan
TJ Enthusiast
When I first installed my lockers, I did my rear first. Took a couple hours then we went and tested it the next day on a trip up Idyllwilds black diamond trial. The only thing I noticed was i had more traction. Steering was perfect. The following Saturday I installed my front Spartan locker and that's when I noticed how hard it was to steer. When you put it into 4WD the front end want to go straight and will auto- center with 2-3 times the force on the steering wheel. So if you are correct why didn't I have any problems before I installed the front locker? Why can I turn my steering wheel to full lock in 2WD and and have no problem turning. The rear locker doesn't know if it's in 2 or 4wd so it would happen even if the front wasn't engaged correct?
I'm not trying to sound like a annoying jerk, I'm just really not understanding how you explained it. I don't want to waste money if I don't need to lol
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TheFrenchMan
TJ Enthusiast
If you live where it snows I wouldn't get a lunchbox locker of any kind. Go with selectables or LDS. I would have to drive an hour up a mountain around here to find snow...maybe...
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Do you notice the front in 2wd? If not, then a simple test will tell you all you need to know. Go do a circle under power no coasting in 2 wheel drive in a parking lot or dirt field that is flat and note the diameter. Then do the same thing in 4 wheel drive and you will note that both are the same. Your harder to steer issue may have just been the terrain, but it is most assuredly not the front locker. If you like, you are welcome to come and test any of the three I have with selectables front and rear. Engage the rear so it is a spool do the circles, lock the front and do them again. They don't change much at all. You can do the same test with the front only locked to really see the difference between front and rear locked.
You can do the same with yours by pulling the rear driveshaft.
TheFrenchMan
TJ Enthusiast
@mrblaine This morning I did what you said in my parking lot. I already new what was going to happen. In 2wd I can turn my wheel to full lock and make a hair pin turn with my rear auto locker under power without any problems. Come to a stop, put it in 4WD hi or low doesn't matter and the jeep will try and move straight and hardly want to turn at all. I knew this would happen since I'm on dry pavement, on dirt it's more forgiving so the turning radius is slightly better than on pavement. Because I have a rear auto locker with how you've explained it, this wouldn't/shouldn't happen. This is because the front is now locked up and the front tires can't turn at different speeds. Nothing to do with the rear being an auto locker.
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There is something askew with your rear locker then. There is no way it shouldn't lock under power and if it locks under power, the turning radius can NOT be different because the tires are not able to turn at different rates. It should be impossible to make a hair pin turn unless the tires are skidding or the locker is malfunctioning. It doesn't get any more simple than that. Are you sure you don't have a True Trac installed in the rear?
TheFrenchMan
TJ Enthusiast
I installed the Spartan lockers myself so I know what's in the rear. Do you understand how they work? Even under power it can allow one axle to turn faster than the other. That the whole point of a locker. The rear axle is the pivot when turning and has the leverage of the whole jeep to make them spin at different speeds even under load. The front axle doesn't have this leverage and can't over come the power of the springs and friction of the teeth.
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TheFrenchMan
TJ Enthusiast
I've driven a CJ7 that had spools front and back the rear tires chirped and make a lot of noise but I could still turn.
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Which is exactly what your auto locker should be doing under power. I've driven many due to all the things I build for folks and there isn't one rear auto locker that doesn't kick, buck, chirp tires etc when I'm on the power in a turn. If yours isn't doing that, you need to find out why.
TheFrenchMan
TJ Enthusiast
Well if you want to come by and drive a jeep that has auto lockers front and back you can see for yourself. If I floored it in 2WD both rears will lock up in a straight line. That's what it's supposed to do. If you turn the wheel and let out the clutch slowly and ease into the turn you will feel the rear outside disconnect as it needs to spin faster, even if I add more skinny pedal. That's it doing its job. Like I said before. The rear axle has more leverage on them in a turn then the front. You can stick with your "its not the front axle that makes you unable to steer" but I feel like that is completely incorrect. Goes completely against logic and everyone else's opinion I have talked to. If I can steer fine on turns in 2WD with my rear auto locker and in 4WD the steering becomes tighter and harder to turn on tight corners, the only thing that has changed is the front auto locker is now in the mix. The answer should be common sense! I've had fun going back and forth you but I don't think I can explain it any better.
"I rest my case!"
Happy wheeling!
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TheFrenchMan
TJ Enthusiast
You answered the question when you said "feel the rear outside disconnect." It is no longer locked.
I had a Spider Trac in a YJ that was the same way. Only had it in the rear which made it squirrely as hell on dry pavement under power.
TheFrenchMan
TJ Enthusiast
I've never had the rear auto locker give me any problems. I never even hear it besides the ratcheting sound. I mean it's a jeep not a sports car.
Also this began about slow speed turning with a front auto locker. Nothing to do with high speed high power turns. From a dead stop I can turn my wheel to full lock and make a sharp hairpin turn without any issues or sounds from my rear tires or rear auto locker. The problem I have is the front auto locker, put it in 4WD and steering becomes much much harder. The discussion was about this wether is was the front or rear auto locker that causes the steering issue.
I have proved that the front being an auto locker is my problem and has nothing to do with the rear.
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