Gas tank overflow
- Thread starter jamespwsullivan
- Start date
- Status
I know, it took a little bit of holding firm, but they paid for the tank and install.
The Chrysler extended warranty people were awesome, and a pleasure to work with, once the dealership was out of formula
I vote for design flaw - not the fault of enthanol.
If you had about 4 hours to dig into this I could take you thru all the material compatibility charts and testing on my own stuff I did over a 7 year period. Much of the issues believed by mechanics are wife's tales fed by internet, not quashed by oil companies who would rather have back 10% more oil volume, and in particular - additive companies who have the "fix in a bottle"
Truth is that issues with ethanol are primarily around open vented fuel systems such as boating and small engines yet there are a precious few issues in automotive and those were completely avoidable had the automotive industry been head out of sand in material selection and not avoiding proper design.
To much to cover in this post but for example in elastomers (seal materials) there a 4 of about 20 that are poor for ethanol and ONLY 4 that are acceptable for gasoline!
I was in the oil distribution business for 26 years and ethanol for 6. I can tell you the oil boys have enjoyed the benefits of misconceptions.
I'm not in either industry today- I've no skin in either game today but just wanted to say it is very very unlikely that ethanol softened or caused swelling of any of the plastics typically used in a gasoline tank-- but if somehow Jeep managed to find one that would do this - it would be Jeeps faux pas because it would be difficult to find one that would swell.
I don't believe it is the ethanol that does it. Something is changing though and it changes the dimension of the valve or the cage it rides in. If you examine them, they are very well made close tolerance high quality moldings. Maybe too close tolerances?
I believe that all the ethanol compatibility issues were well sorted many years ago and that would be something well known. I suspect it is more related to something I've noticed due to my work with designing skids for the various tanks and that is the permeability of the various fuel compatible plastics and how gasoline affects them. If you take an empty tank that has had time to fully dry out and let all the fuel vapor and liquid go away, it is dimensionally smaller by about 1/2" lengthwise, 1/2" in the height, and about 1/4-3/8" front to back. If you build a skid for a tank that has been sitting around empty and then try to put a tank that has never been empty of fuel in it, it simply won't fit if the skid fits the dry tank snugly and not by a small amount.
I had to borrow rigs with wet tanks in them to finalize the dimensions of the Savvy skid because the dry tanks were no Bueno for sizing.
The plastics used in the valve are very obviously two different kinds and I suspect that a tank that is kept full and driven keeping the assembly soaked in fuel acts differently to one that sits with a low amount of fuel in the tank and the valve shrinks at a different rate possibly than the cage does.
All I know with 100% certainty is it only takes a very small amount of material removal to restore full functionality so the shrink/swell differential wouldn't have to be very much, maybe only a few thousandths.
True mrblaine- swelling is often greatest in the presence of the aromatics found in gasoline- the compounds ending with "ene"- benzene, toluene, etc.
They were really bad in the 70' and 80's until the EPA forced oil companies to sharply reduce the levels. At one time they were so high that automakers had to be careful with even metal selection due to their agressive behavior. This was about the time gasohol first showed up at a few stations in the Midwest and ethanol took all the blame for what aromatics was greatly contributing to.
Enough on that- thanks for pointing out the sticking overturn valve problem.
They were really bad in the 70' and 80's until the EPA forced oil companies to sharply reduce the levels. At one time they were so high that automakers had to be careful with even metal selection due to their agressive behavior. This was about the time gasohol first showed up at a few stations in the Midwest and ethanol took all the blame for what aromatics was greatly contributing to.
Enough on that- thanks for pointing out the sticking overturn valve problem.
I've probably overstated the Ethanol issue regarding the automotive industry.
But having a small engine repair shop i can say with confidence that Ethenol degraded plastic and rubber components, made the engines run hotter and shortened the lifespan of the engine.
My guess would be that most of the damage occurs while the engine sits for long periods as they tend to do.
But having a small engine repair shop i can say with confidence that Ethenol degraded plastic and rubber components, made the engines run hotter and shortened the lifespan of the engine.
My guess would be that most of the damage occurs while the engine sits for long periods as they tend to do.
Thanks for more info. As you can guess, stuff like this fascinates me because I want to know how it works. When you know how something works, you can use that knowledge to understand other things. I wish I understood more about why some stuff shrinks when exposed to fuels, brake fluids and similar incompatible situations and other stuff swells. I suspect there is a leaching effect somehow but I don't know the fundamentals. Fortunately, the most common error, introducing petroleum based liquids into the brake fluid system is easy to spot because the brake fluid compatible compounds swell a bunch in the presence of petroleum based liquids.
Yes Bird- problem with open vented fuel tanks is introduction of air and moisture. While 10% ethanol will help absorb up to 4 tsp water per gallon of gasoline that is laying in the tank and clear it thru without issue or separation - too many people do not properly store gasoline in sealed containers nor do they turn over inventory fast enough- especially in the equipment tank ( nor either have the tank completely full or completely emptied when not in use)
Since all alcohols are hydroscopic they will eventually reach a point where formic or acetic acid will form- these are the things that work on the metals rather than the ethanol itself.
So corrosion is more related to poorly stored/old fuel - and if you did the same with straight gasoline then you could experience varnish/gum build up in carbs like was an issue in the old days before this became watched a bit more closely in fuel spec.
Now about running lean- yes- the air/fuel ratio for ethanol is certainly different than gasoline and while any modern auto automatically adjusts this - a carb requires tuning for it. I have 3 chainsaws running both e10 and straight Dino and they frankly run better on e10 because these 3 were always tuned rich. It is my understanding that new saws suck in that the adjustment screw is meant to not be moved (is this the case?)- my saws are 20-35 years old.
Your doing something right with 20-35 yr old saws " the good ones "
I remove the limiter tabs on every saw i work on which would not be recommended for the average home owner......to lean, saw burns up....to rich, spark arrester screen clogs.
Your saws were before EPA Restrictions which reduces the performance of newer saws.
Here's a very simple way to regain performance besides running 93 Octane non-ethanol fuel.
Remove restrictor plate and then remove restrictor tube followed by some Dremel work.
That is an actual fix for a faulty spoon. The GM thing is more like going out and putting air in a tire every day that has a slow leak from nail. Yes, it can be driven on, yes the air makes it functional again, but pulling the nail and plugging the hole is the actual fix.
The correct fix is so "simple" once you see the true root cause of the problem.
I assume the GM hack gained traction because it's a simpler "solution" (IE less labor) for DIYers. I never bothered with this however. I have a 19 gallon tank. When my low gas warning goes on I can get about 14 gallons in there before the tank is full again, so just use some basic math during fill ups.
I've never viewed @mrblaine as a bully and we are lucky to have access to such knowledgeable people. You cannot decipher somebodies tone from what they are writing. If you have a pre conceived notion about somebodies intentions while you are reading their post you will automatically just assume the person is being a dick.
Lastly, if you don't like a specific user they can be blocked and it will be like they don't exist.
I assume the GM hack gained traction because it's a simpler "solution" (IE less labor) for DIYers. I never bothered with this however. I have a 19 gallon tank. When my low gas warning goes on I can get about 14 gallons in there before the tank is full again, so just use some basic math during fill ups.
I've never viewed @mrblaine as a bully and we are lucky to have access to such knowledgeable people. You cannot decipher somebodies tone from what they are writing. If you have a pre conceived notion about somebodies intentions while you are reading their post you will automatically just assume the person is being a dick.
Lastly, if you don't like a specific user they can be blocked and it will be like they don't exist.
Last edited:
Or put another way, you have self control, use it.
That and a lot of folks who think I'm a dick still won't put me on ignore because they know at some point there just might be something I know that they need to know that they don't.
Couldn't have said it better myself. You know a lot, I also really can't stand you. But you know way more that I do on a lot of subjects so it would be the height of foolishness to put you on ignore. When you are wrong (and it admittedly isn't often) I just don't engage as you are incapable of admitting fault. That's fine, I know people like that in person, I just smile and nod.
—
There must have been a time
when we could have said no.
BendLarry
TJ Addict
He is truly a self loving dick. There is nothing he thinks he knows that is of interest to me. There are a lot of other people here who have helped me a lot! He has never.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Starting to sound a lot like jeep forum around here. C'mon guys, lighten up.
I'm very capable of admitting fault and the words "I'm sorry" are part of my daily vocabulary. I have no problem with being wrong, the only folks in this world who don't make mistakes are those who do nothing.
That's because you're one of those who wish to remain willfully ignorant. Not much I can do about that.
BendLarry
TJ Addict
Larry, not really trying to get in the middle of this, but the ignore button is exactly for the statement you made above. If you believe he has no value to you why do you keep responding?
- Status