It’s just a matter of time.Don't let @JMT see this
Arizona Rock Crawler
- Thread starter starkey480
- Start date
Minty, appreciate the input
I love your rig and hope to have a capable setup like yours one day.Eventually when I can upgrade axles I'll definitely go with a proper locker. But with my Dana 30 front and 35 rear, a lunchbox front and limited slip rear is all I'm comfortable doing to keep the risk of breakage to minimum.
After looking at this upgrade in more detail. I really like the idea of a 3 link front. With the caveat that I'm in learning mode here, I'm wondering where the break point is for reducing bind. It seems like this is really only an issue if you're running a longer travel shock. For example, would there be any significant benefit when running an 8" or 9" travel shock? How about a 10" shock? Or, is the magic number really a 12" shock.
FWIW, I generally don't see a lot of bind, unless I'm running a tall spring, longer shocks, and take it to full droop. As I said, just trying to understand when it's worth it and when it is not. And, are there cons to a 3 link front, especially for a dual purpose vehicle, i.e. daily driver and weekend wheeler.
FWIW, I generally don't see a lot of bind, unless I'm running a tall spring, longer shocks, and take it to full droop. As I said, just trying to understand when it's worth it and when it is not. And, are there cons to a 3 link front, especially for a dual purpose vehicle, i.e. daily driver and weekend wheeler.
Outboards with 11" and 12" shocks are routinely done on 5 link short arms. The bind is noticeable while cycling with a floor jack. But once 4-5000lb of vehicle is acting on the suspension, it doesn't matter much.After looking at this upgrade in more detail. I really like the idea of a 3 link front. With the caveat that I'm in learning mode here, I'm wondering where the break point is for reducing bind. It seems like this is really only an issue if you're running a longer travel shock. For example, would there be any significant benefit when running an 8" or 9" travel shock? How about a 10" shock? Or, is the magic number really a 12" shock.
FWIW, I generally don't see a lot of bind, unless I'm running a tall spring, longer shocks, and take it to full droop. As I said, just trying to understand when it's worth it and when it is not. And, are there cons to a 3 link front, especially for a dual purpose vehicle, i.e. daily driver and weekend wheeler.
Both of these have rear 12s and 11 fronts. One has factory mount short arms.
Hard to tell from the picture, but it looks like one of those is not like the other. Mid arm on yours?
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So the Mid Arm 3 link front and stock SA shows no real difference in bind at full droop? If that's the case, what is the benefit of the 3 link? Just trying to understand why moving to a 3 link SA is beneficial?
It solves the issue of the problematic upper joints being too small when the rig moves away from stock far enough. The clevite solution tends to wear faster, the JJ and other joint solutions tends to not be robust enough and there is more unwanted movement which leads to a lower amount of control over the axle.
We see it on rigs that get used hard. We rarely see it on street rigs and rigs with a diet of milder trails.
The benefit of the larger single upper other than control is it also reduces bind in the front axle.
OP
I’ve done so many changes at once, it’s hard to tell what is doing what. I feel so much more control when braking hard. I’m guessing the larger joints help with this but probably my increase in caster as well?
Hard to tell. Same old thing though, single point solutions rarely exist so the better way to build something is to fix each small thing to make it better which will typically result in an answer that winds up being a bit better than the sum of its parts.
This answers my question exactly, thanks! Two statements @starkey480 made that set me down the path of asking this question:
"It’s nice to be able to take my springs out without disconnecting the trackbar. I can go to full droop easily with no bind."
and
"I definitely notice less brake dive due to moving the UCA axle mount up slightly and also because these 2 bigger Johnny joints do a better job of controlling the axle than all 4 of the smaller joints on standard upper arms."
Even if I didn't push my jeep as hard, I can see the benefits of making the swap. Running the larger bottom joints up top makes sense. You don't see a SA 3 link all the time, so is there a preferred truss to use? He mentioned a hybrid, with UCF along the tubes and Savvy prototype. Is this a case where you could use the Savvy mid arm truss for a SA 3 link? I'm guessing a truss that maximizes clearance is desirable.
OP
I can’t wait to feel the difference going from 3” of backspace to 4”.
For the rest of you, I’ve been complaining about my wobbly wheels for a while. Steel wheels just don’t hold up to hard wheeling. They are bent and probably out of round, so I get a nasty wobble especially when going around curves at 50mph. Luckily I have 2 Jeeps in the family and was able to throw on my dads wheels that also have MTRs and got zero wobbles. So my next purchase needs to come way sooner than I would like and that is new wheels.
My hub kit adds 1” track width to each side. This effectively reduces the backspacing by an inch. So my 4” backspace wheels give me 3” backspace. Many of you probably already know this, but you hear a lot of people saying that increasing track width increases stability. This is not true in the case of using spacers or low backspace wheels. The reason being, is moving the tire out away from the ball joints gives too much positive scrub radius. Draw a line from your top ball joint to the bottom ball joint down to the ground. That line is referred to as the kingpin axis. That line should intersect the midpoint of the tire right around where the tire ground contact patch is. As you move the tire out away from there with less backspacing, you start messing with the handling. All that to say, I’d like to get wheels with 5” of backspacing so that I have a net 4” backspace which will maintain a nice scrub radius and probably keep my balljoints healthier as well. The problem is finding 15” wheels with 5” backspace. I’ll report back when I find them though!
OP
My truss is a hybrid only because it already had a UCF truss on. So I just cut off the part above the diff and added an old savvy truss there. If you were to do it you could just use the savvy midarm truss. Blaine can answer this better than I can, but I think you’ll have to reposition the link mount on the truss to be facing the short arm frame mount to keep the joints centered in the mounts.
The truss he is using is one from a batch of them I had made that copied the RE truss but was similar enough that he could use it instead of the Savvy also factoring in that there was a stiffener on the long side tube. The reason he uses the term "Walmart" is due to his budget constraints and me being able to gather up enough lowball priced parts and pieces to get him well along this particular path of mods. I had some stuff that is perfectly fine but not in my most favored status group of parts I use. Parts like the -12 push lock fittings that are 30 bucks each in silver Aeroquip. About half that for both in blue and red. For someone with low standards, they work just fine.
Starting from scratch on a clean axle, I'd try to get the Savvy stuff because it is clean and simple and I'm familiar with it plus if I ever decided to move to the mid arm, the front is done, if not, no harm, no foul.
It wouldn't hurt anything to run it misaligned provided the joint body didn't hit the inside of the mount.
Is that really a UCF part?
OP
What’s funny is I was actually knocking my workmanship when I called it a walmart blaine build. Looked sort of like a blaine build with the idea, parts, same paint, and zip tied lines on the 3 link but not quite the same quality as when you do it.
OP
That whole monstrosity of a truss is a UCF part including the the ugly passenger mount. I did a truss search to figure out what it was lol
Well, fuck me, I thought it was the original owner's homebrew piece of shit.
OP
I was shocked when I found that it was actually designed like that
I suppose there’s no clearance issues with it, just ugly as fuck
It is amazingly inelegant for a pay money for it product.I was shocked when I found that it was actually designed like that