BDS Suspension?

[mots]

From what I have read, if you do just the MML you can either trim the fan shroud to make room for clearance, remove the shroud, or relocate the shroud. That isn't an option for me, and I think keeping the shroud intact is important. Or, you can do the body lift to match the MML to avoid the fan issues. The BL would be wisest I think. I would be curious to the costs and any cons to doing the MML and 1" body lift. I assume stock brake lines would still be fine since the suspension is only raised 2" in my case.

 

[Tera]

From what I have read, if you do just the MML you can either trim the fan shroud to make room for clearance, remove the shroud, or relocate the shroud. That isn't an option for me, and I think keeping the shroud intact is important. Or, you can do the body lift to match the MML to avoid the fan issues. The BL would be wisest I think. I would be curious to the costs and any cons to doing the MML and 1" body lift. I assume stock brake lines would still be fine since the suspension is only raised 2" in my case.

I have heard that the MML/BL combo makes shifting more difficult and a spacer is needed for standard trannys to shift like stock. Trying to decide if all that is worth not biting the bullet on ACA/SYE right away or not. Either way, I want to leave the fan all intact as well.

 

[mots]

I have heard that the MML/BL combo makes shifting more difficult and a spacer is needed for standard trannys to shift like stock. Trying to decide if all that is worth not biting the bullet on ACA/SYE right away or not. Either way, I want to leave the fan all intact as well.

Interesting, thanks. I have also read about the shifter hitting the console if you drop the transfer case too low. I have the 6 speed, so I'm hoping to avoid this. It sounds like there is a fix by moving the console a bit, but that doesn't sound appealing either...maybe it isn't a big deal. Do you have a link to the spacer?

 

[Tera]

I'll have to find it. A guy in my jeep club just did it and we were going over his build. I'll try to find it and post it. Why did you decide to go 2in over 3in?

 

[Tera]

@mots we may have been talking about the 4x4 not shifting and believe this might be what he did.

https://www.extremeterrain.com/rugg...ge&gclid=CJD34Lz_sNwCFZLiswod50gODQ&gclsrc=ds

 

[mots]

I'll have to find it. A guy in my jeep club just did it and we were going over his build. I'll try to find it and post it. Why did you decide to go 2in over 3in?

@mots we may have been talking about the 4x4 not shifting and believe this might be what he did.

https://www.extremeterrain.com/rugged-ridge-drop-bracket-yj-tj-1830505.html?utm_content=XT Driveline - Other|Rugged Ridge&T5_Var4=J21470&intl=0&utm_campaign=XTW+Wrangler+Vehicle+Medium&dialogtech=ppc&utm_source=google-pla&utm_medium=shopping&T5_Var2=shopping&T5_Var3=orange&gclid=CJD34Lz_sNwCFZLiswod50gODQ&gclsrc=ds

Thanks, I wonder how much of a t-case drop on average before the 4x4 shifter is also affected? Hopefully this won't be an issue with just a 3/4" t-case drop?

I chose the 2" lift over the 3" to avoid geometry problems, LOL. Oh well, it should theoretically make the issues lesser and easier to correct with just a t-case drop. I also talked myself into only needing 32" tires and that helped with deciding on the 2" lift as well. I think many 32's can look almost as good as 33's and help to keep things just a little closer to stock. Since I have the Dana 44 with the 3.73 gears, that is good enough for me to drive the 32's without too much performance degradation, and without feeling the need to re-gear immediately. The 32's also weigh less and put less strain on the suspension, steering, braking, tire carrier, and driveline (without re-gearing). I figured much of this out after I drove some lifted LJ's with 33's and 35's that still had the stock 3.73. After that, I started researching how lift size and tire size would affect performance, costs and reliability over both the short term and long term (highway performance, money spent chasing gremlins, excessive wear and tear\strain on components etc).

 

[Bruce20]

Here it is now with the BDS 2" lift kit installed (BDS springs, NX2 shocks). Probably not necessary, but I also added the JKS quick disconnects and NX2 steering stabilizer. I'm very happy with the lift height and the ride is nice and compliant on-road. A bonus was that the NX2 shocks and stabilizer have a silver painted body that matches my bright silver TJ. Need to wax those things up, LOL.

However, a negative is that I now have some minor vibration when taking off from a complete stop in first gear (rear driveshaft pinion angle related issue I assume). I can feel it most in the 6 speed shifter as the driveline shimmys a bit and then goes away fairly quickly as I continue to accelerate. Nothing violent by any means, but it needs to be fixed. It is a little more pronounced the faster I attempt to accelerate. So, I'm not going to drive it any further and we'll be dropping the t-case a tad to see if it smooths things out on Monday.

More notes:

• It was good I could compare the wheel\tire upgrade by itself first and then the BDS lift about a week later. Both were very nice upgrades from stock form. Now with the lift, it is even more compliant and is quite a bit better than my previous setup on stock springs with Bilstein 5100's. Before the lift, clearance on the 32's wasn't a problem for normal on-road driving with the 3.75" backspaced wheels, but I wouldn't want to drive like this for too long.
• After the lift was installed, when I come into my driveway over a rounded curb of 4 inches or so, I noticed that it now feels like it oozes over more smoothly as opposed to roughly jolting up and over like before. Same tire pressure, same tires, same wheels, only differences are as noted above. After riding around a bit, my wife also had me do the speed bump test, LOL. It passed the test and handled the jolts well, much better dampening than before the upgrade. Anyhow, just some quick observations after a bit of driving, so we'll see how things go from here. The NX2 shocks claim to have "velocity sensitive valving for lightning fast adaptive dampening to whatever terrain you traverse". We'll have to put these things through the paces a bit and see how they hold up on our crappy roads here in the midwest, LOL.
• As far as diagnosing the vibes...there aren't any issues with the rear shaft u-joints during inspection or sounds during driving, so leaving those alone for now.
• Carfax tidbit: my front driveshaft was replaced at 67k by Gazzani Motors Inc. Elmwood, NJ. Wonder what this was about...
• Still would like to upgrade the rear driveshaft to something better at some point, do the adjustable arms, and SYE. Maybe even gear up from 3.73 at that time as well. For now, I hope the t-case fixes the starting vibration issue and I can just enjoy the Jeep for awhile without spending any more $ immediately (yeah, I bet you've heard that one before!).
• Motor mounts and trans mounts seem to be OK, but I need to inspect them more closely.

If anybody has additional advice or comments, please let it fly. Thanks!

View attachment 48232
View attachment 48235

Before and After (also can see upgraded Banks exhaust):

View attachment 48234

It looks good. What is the width of the tires? 11.5? What is your bumpstop set at? My springs and shocks have been here for a week, but I’ve been prettying it up since I have the shocks and the springs out and both of my fenders off. Do you wish you went 3” and 33s? I kind of want to go 33s, so I may need an inch spacer‍. You have a really clean Jeep btw. Good luck on the vibes. I hope mine doesn’t have them.


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[Bruce20]

I definitely would recommend going with the Borla and removing the 3rd unmonitored cat (if newer TJ).

Why does it have to be a newer TJ? Do the pre 2000s ones have only two cats?



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[mots]

It looks good. What is the width of the tires? 11.5? What is your bumpstop set at? My springs and shocks have been here for a week, but I’ve been prettying it up since I have the shocks and the springs out and both of my fenders off. Do you wish you went 3” and 33s? I kind of want to go 33s, so I may need an inch spacer‍. You have a really clean Jeep btw. Good luck on the vibes. I hope mine doesn’t have them.

Thanks. Yes, they are the typical 32x11.5xR15. Per BDS and the shop I had do the install, you are supposed to be able to run stock bump stops if you stick with the recommended tire size, at least in most cases. I may be doing some changes in this area as things progress forward. So far, I don't see any need to change anything for the way the I will use the Jeep mostly on-road.

Why does it have to be a newer TJ? Do the pre 2000s ones have only two cats?

The pre 2000's had 1 single monitored cat with only two O2 sensors.
The newer TJ's have the 2 mini cats (1 cat per 3 cylinder bank), 4 O2 sensors, and a 3rd unmonitored larger cat.

 

[Bruce20]

Thanks. Yes, they are the typical 32x11.5xR15. Per BDS and the shop I had do the install, you are supposed to be able to run stock bump stops if you stick with the recommended tire size, at least in most cases. I may be doing some changes in this area as things progress forward. So far, I don't see any need to change anything for the way the I will use the Jeep mostly on-road.



The pre 2000's had 1 single monitored cat with only two O2 sensors.
The newer TJ's have the 2 mini cats (1 cat per 3 cylinder bank), 4 O2 sensors, and a 3rd unmonitored larger cat.

Thanks for the info. I’m glad I have a pre 2000s because my Jeep backfired when it gets up to operating temp. It literally spits flames. I know it is an O2 sensor, but my battery is out, so I can’t put my OBD ll port on it right now. I’ll probably just replace both of them anyway. So in theory the pre 2000s will sound better with a cat back, correct?


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[mots]

Thanks for the info. I’m glad I have a pre 2000s because my Jeep backfired when it gets up to operating temp. It literally spits flames. I know it is an O2 sensor, but my battery is out, so I can’t put my OBD ll port on it right now. I’ll probably just replace both of them anyway. So in theory the pre 2000s will sound better with a cat back, correct?

Yes, less converters will definitely give you the louder aggressive tone the performance muffler was designed to deliver, if that is what you are looking for. If you are spitting flames though, you'll want to double check those specific codes and inspect your cat to make sure it is still OK and fully intact. Otherwise, if it is hollowed out or partially clogged, a new downstream sensor may detect the problem and still throw a code. In my case, everything was original at 103k, and the recurring code (along with the absence of other codes) suggested at least one of the mini cats were bad. Many others that have replaced their cats at or around this mileage have reported failure, breakup, partial clogs etc. So, I just decided to replace everything manifold back as I explained above.

 

[Bruce20]

Yes, less converters will definitely give you the louder aggressive tone the performance muffler was designed to deliver, if that is what you are looking for. If you are spitting flames though, you'll want to double check those specific codes and inspect your cat to make sure it is still OK and fully intact. Otherwise, if it is hollowed out or partially clogged, a new downstream sensor may detect the problem and still throw a code. In my case, everything was original at 103k, and the recurring code (along with the absence of other codes) suggested at least one of the mini cats were bad. Many others that have replaced their cats at or around this mileage have reported failure, breakup, partial clogs etc. So, I just decided to replace everything manifold back as I explained above.

Yeah, I figured it may damage the cat. I parked it after it spit the flames and that is when I decided to lift her since I have another car that I can daily, but this will be my daily when it’s done[emoji16]. What was clogging when they replaced the cats? I know there has to be an exhaust leak too because I smell exhaust when I open my door when it is running. I have another problem that I will start a new thread about. I smell antifreeze. I think it may be the water pump.


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[Cal]

From what I have read, if you do just the MML you can either trim the fan shroud to make room for clearance, remove the shroud, or relocate the shroud. That isn't an option for me, and I think keeping the shroud intact is important. Or, you can do the body lift to match the MML to avoid the fan issues. The BL would be wisest I think. I would be curious to the costs and any cons to doing the MML and 1" body lift. I assume stock brake lines would still be fine since the suspension is only raised 2" in my case.

It all gets a bit confusing after everything you can read and all of the different opinions on here nice heard some people say just a TC drop helps I’ve heard some say the MML I’ve heard some use a combo but the most accurate advice I’ve heard is that every single Jeep is different so it’s never the same for one as it is for the other. I’ve read the best combo you can have without breaking the bank and clearing 33s is the 2” lift with a 1.25” body lift. I’m not the most mechanically inclined so I’m going to take time to make my decision and then let this reputable off road shop here in my town put it on for me, and they offer warranties with all of their work so win win. Haha

 

[dla]

Are yall running the MML by itself or with a body lift? I'm looking at the 3in BDS lift to avoid having to go ACA and SYE immediately. Glad I found this thread!

With a 1” body lift.

 

[mots]

Here it is now with the BDS 2" lift kit installed (BDS springs, NX2 shocks). Probably not necessary, but I also added the JKS quick disconnects and NX2 steering stabilizer. I'm very happy with the lift height and the ride is nice and compliant on-road. A bonus was that the NX2 shocks and stabilizer have a silver painted body that matches my bright silver TJ. Need to wax those things up, LOL.

However, a negative is that I now have some minor vibration when taking off from a complete stop in first gear (rear driveshaft pinion angle related issue I assume). I can feel it most in the 6 speed shifter as the driveline shimmys a bit and then goes away fairly quickly as I continue to accelerate. Nothing violent by any means, but it needs to be fixed. It is a little more pronounced the faster I attempt to accelerate. So, I'm not going to drive it any further and we'll be dropping the t-case a tad to see if it smooths things out on Monday.

More notes:

• It was good I could compare the wheel\tire upgrade by itself first and then the BDS lift about a week later. Both were very nice upgrades from stock form. Now with the lift, it is even more compliant and is quite a bit better than my previous setup on stock springs with Bilstein 5100's. Before the lift, clearance on the 32's wasn't a problem for normal on-road driving with the 3.75" backspaced wheels, but I wouldn't want to drive like this for too long.
• After the lift was installed, when I come into my driveway over a rounded curb of 4 inches or so, I noticed that it now feels like it oozes over more smoothly as opposed to roughly jolting up and over like before. Same tire pressure, same tires, same wheels, only differences are as noted above. After riding around a bit, my wife also had me do the speed bump test, LOL. It passed the test and handled the jolts well, much better dampening than before the upgrade. Anyhow, just some quick observations after a bit of driving, so we'll see how things go from here. The NX2 shocks claim to have "velocity sensitive valving for lightning fast adaptive dampening to whatever terrain you traverse". We'll have to put these things through the paces a bit and see how they hold up on our crappy roads here in the midwest, LOL.
• As far as diagnosing the vibes...there aren't any issues with the rear shaft u-joints during inspection or sounds during driving, so leaving those alone for now.
• Carfax tidbit: my front driveshaft was replaced at 67k by Gazzani Motors Inc. Elmwood, NJ. Wonder what this was about...
• Still would like to upgrade the rear driveshaft to something better at some point, do the adjustable arms, and SYE. Maybe even gear up from 3.73 at that time as well. For now, I hope the t-case fixes the starting vibration issue and I can just enjoy the Jeep for awhile without spending any more $ immediately (yeah, I bet you've heard that one before!).
• Motor mounts and trans mounts seem to be OK, but I need to inspect them more closely.

If anybody has additional advice or comments, please let it fly. Thanks!

View attachment 48232
View attachment 48235

Before and After (also can see upgraded Banks exhaust):

View attachment 48234

Update...dropping the t-case on my '05 ~1" solved the minor rear driveshaft vibration as expected. Loving the new setup, I can't wait to hop in and drive today! From my wheel gap measurements, I got almost 2.5" of lift from the 2" kit (stock hard top, no winch, stock bumpers, no extra armor etc.). No issues getting into 4H or 4L after the drop as we were discussing above. Since it's just a street Jeep, I have no issues running it like this...clearance isn't an issue for me and driveline angle looks pretty much like stock from the pics that I have throughout the process.

It all gets a bit confusing after everything you can read and all of the different opinions on here nice heard some people say just a TC drop helps I’ve heard some say the MML I’ve heard some use a combo but the most accurate advice I’ve heard is that every single Jeep is different so it’s never the same for one as it is for the other. I’ve read the best combo you can have without breaking the bank and clearing 33s is the 2” lift with a 1.25” body lift. I’m not the most mechanically inclined so I’m going to take time to make my decision and then let this reputable off road shop here in my town put it on for me, and they offer warranties with all of their work so win win. Haha

Yes, it is a bit confusing to go through the learning curve the first time! After all my research, for suspension lifts my advice would be to keep it simple (only 2-2.5" lift with t-case drop) OR just plan to go all out and do it right with SYE, CV driveshaft, adjustable arms, trackbars etc. Either way, just make sure to budget time and money to fix the driveline geometry issue that will most likely ensue! For a street Jeep with infrequent or mild off-road duty, the simple route should be just fine. And like you said, you can economically add a small body lift to clear 33's if you like to take it a bit further without screwing up the driveline angle (and use the MML instead of the t-case drop). However, for a true and proper off-road Jeep, I would save up, do it right, and build properly for whatever terrain you will be conquering.

 

[Cal]

I went through the same thing recently! I was between OME and BDS and I ultimately called both companies and the tech guys from BDS were very down to earth and really knew what they were talking about. They shared the Pros/Cons between the two and after a few days I went with BDS 2” Kit. I am very happy with the setup. I do light off roading and it’s mostly a daily driver. Here are before and after with 31” tires.

View attachment 46525
View attachment 46526

Any more pictures of your rig with the 2” BDS?

 

[JMT]

Are yall running the MML by itself or with a body lift? I'm looking at the 3in BDS lift to avoid having to go ACA and SYE immediately. Glad I found this thread!

I ran a Brown Dog MML alone after my 2.5 IMe. I got death wobble that day for the first time. It causes a change in rigidity since the motor is lifted in orientation to the frame. If any of your front end components are weak, it could show up in the DW. I ended up replacing trackbar with an adjustable and my tie rod ends. DW ended, shimmy from 40-47 remained. Got tires balanced multiple times without a change. New tires, drives perfect.

In short, DW after a MML is technically not the cause of DW after installed, but it does reveal any weak spots due to the change in rigidity. Would I do it again? Yes.

Now I have a BL too, and it’s easiest to do these two mods together, just unbolt the fan shroud during installation.

 

[JMT]

Also, with a BL you will likely need a Savvy TCase Shifter to allow you to shift into 4wd, since the stock one will bind.

And yes, the 6-speed can get dangerously close to the shifter bezel in 2, 4, 6 and R when you do a MML and BL combo. There is a workaround for that. It differs from the 97-05 models vs the 05-06. I assume you have the latter. I have a write up that fixes it sufficiently until you are ready to go to SYE and DC and rear adjustable upper CA’s.

 

[BayTJ]

Any more pictures of your rig with the 2” BDS?

 

[fourmustangs]

So people do the 3" lift front and 2" lift rear to keep level correct?

I have the LJ Rubicon W/ Hardtop so should I just do the 3" front plus 3/4 spacer and 3" rear ? paired with the 39/41 rancho shocks.