Dave Kishpaugh's (Jeep West) geometry correction brackets are now available

[rasband]

Shock outboard without a caliper flip https://www.stu-offroad.com/suspension/rearshock/rearshock-4.htm done by Blaine himself. Caliper flip was an improvement on the process that Blaine came up with later.

I wish there was a date on there, hard to know if that’s still recommended or that Blaine has dialed it in more by now. My money is on the latter.

 

[Apparition]

I wish there was a date on there, hard to know if that’s still recommended or that Blaine has dialed it in more by now. My money is on the latter.

I’m sure if you asked Blaine would answer.

 

[hosejockey61]

I wish there was a date on there, hard to know if that’s still recommended or that Blaine has dialed it in more by now. My money is on the latter.

2003

 

[rasband]

2003

Finally found it!

 

[Jorge Bolivar]

I'm just not sure why one wouldn't flip the caliper since it makes the job a bit easier.

Because that one has never mess with the outboard as much as others do.

 

[rasband]

Because that one has never mess with the outboard as much as others do.

Doesn’t that tell us something, though?

 

[David Kishpaugh]

I would, but I haven't done or seen an outboard without a caliper flip. I'm just not sure why one wouldn't flip the caliper since it makes the job a bit easier.

If you need to flip the calipers to get the shocks off the frame your tires will hit the shocks unless you put spacers on with the 3.75" backspacing. Also, the more angle you put on the shock the more bumpstop you need under articulation compared to full bump of both sides at same time as if you run over a speed bump.
We have alot more room for shock/tire clearance with a track bar and geometry correction as compared to a 4link also.

 

[David Kishpaugh]

You said you felt huge differences after the geo correction... I think mine was less dramatic, and I suspect that's due to wheelbase. My most notable changes were in compliance and stability. For instance going over a speed bump, I am using more shock travel, I'm confident of it. I suspect thats due to the flatter overall control arm angles. You felt it in handling... I suspect that was exaggerated over mine due to the Anti Rock, I'm still on the stock front bar which is quite stiff as we all know.

In closing for me, I'll say that I'm certainly glad I found these here as I wouldn't have known about them otherwise.

I've done probably 10 lj's with geometry correction. They handle and climb better than the tj's do IMO

 

[David Kishpaugh]

I've been waiting for an opportunity to show some ignorance, so here we go...

On my LJ I can notice rear steer when driving down the highway. Especially if its windy. Granted its really hard to tell the exact cause. It could be just the side wind. Being disconnected or having worn anti-sway bar bushings will also contribute to a loose feeling Jeep. But I think that rear steer is definetly a factor in that unsettled feeling you can get when lifted. I don't know that it would be a problem on a trail. I think its more a high speed stabilty issue.

Track bar issues that Currie doesn't fix is just having a solid bracket to raise the track bar sufficiently. You really need to raise that axle end of the trackbar to lower the roll center. Currie does offer a bracket but it should have better support so the axle mount is not torn off. Synergy used to make a fantastic bracket. I have one, but mine has the angled top like in the picture below for an axle that is tipped up with CV shaft, so I can't use it. I wish someone made one like this for stock driveshafts. Notice it has an extension on the bracket to secure it to the axle to account for the extra leverage. Nobody else has ever made such a nice bracket. Its a shame Synergy quit making them.
View attachment 250568

They only acted as a brace. No clearance gains, same as curries weld on bracket.

 

[David Kishpaugh]

I've been waiting for an opportunity to show some ignorance, so here we go...

On my LJ I can notice rear steer when driving down the highway. Especially if its windy. Granted its really hard to tell the exact cause. It could be just the side wind. Being disconnected or having worn anti-sway bar bushings will also contribute to a loose feeling Jeep. But I think that rear steer is definetly a factor in that unsettled feeling you can get when lifted. I don't know that it would be a problem on a trail. I think its more a high speed stabilty issue.

Track bar issues that Currie doesn't fix is just having a solid bracket to raise the track bar sufficiently. You really need to raise that axle end of the trackbar to lower the roll center. Currie does offer a bracket but it should have better support so the axle mount is not torn off. Synergy used to make a fantastic bracket. I have one, but mine has the angled top like in the picture below for an axle that is tipped up with CV shaft, so I can't use it. I wish someone made one like this for stock driveshafts. Notice it has an extension on the bracket to secure it to the axle to account for the extra leverage. Nobody else has ever made such a nice bracket. Its a shame Synergy quit making them.
View attachment 250568

This what used to do before I made the replacement brackets, still do occasionally, but I consider it a waste of time considering the a mount of time it takes to just cut all the crap off and replace it completely

 

[Brianj5600]

If you all spent half the time focusing on your driving skills instead of what is better, you'd all be better.

Are you on short arms?

 

[David Kishpaugh]

If you're curious as to what the mid arm 3link geometry I build looks like.... they are adjustable to find pretty much whatever antisquat # you prefer.

I've built these fronts from 22"-34" long arms.
My preference is 30". 26 works great but are barely capable of an 11" travel shock in stock mounts. 16.4"27.5" shock length.
30" works good with 14" travel set on a 1.5" bumpstop extension.

 

[Blackjack]

I wish there was a date on there, hard to know if that’s still recommended or that Blaine has dialed it in more by now. My money is on the latter.

The answer was already there. Blaine does not go out of his way to do something like flipping the calipers (and design and market the brackets to do it) unless he had observed a condition that he felt needed addressing.

 

[Mike_H]

12s using bushings? Why?

14s on short arms? Why?

Unstable mid arm? Not mine.

And I keep asking people to explain how exactly rear steer affects anything.

And I haven't seen an outboard where the tire contacts the frame.

I'd like to know why you run the mid arm? Just happenstance, because it came out when you were looking, or some other reason? You've alluded to that fact, saying you've built your rig around the midarm, vs building a rig that works, then adding the mid arm.

But now that you have it, You know it changes geometry and that those geometry changes improve the way the Jeep handles. But every time a short arm geometry discussion comes up, you ask a bunch of questions that seem to indicate that geometry correction on short arms is a fool's errand. Maybe it's a miss interpretation on my part...

So... Why a mid arm?

 

[jjvw]

I'd like to know why you run the mid arm? Just happenstance, because it came out when you were looking, or some other reason? You've alluded to that fact, saying you've built your rig around the midarm, vs building a rig that works, then adding the mid arm.

But now that you have it, You know it changes geometry and that those geometry changes improve the way the Jeep handles. But every time a short arm geometry discussion comes up, you ask a bunch of questions that seem to indicate that geometry correction on short arms is a fool's errand. Maybe it's a miss interpretation on my part...

So... Why a mid arm?

The geometry correction here in and of itself is interesting where it addresses roll center and potentially the antisquat. Potentially. I know what I was seeing, so I'm not on board yet. The rest comes across as a lot of uneeded hyperbole for the sake of a bolstering a sales pitch.

Why a mid arm? Because when you actually need to address geometry problems, then solve them. Before that, I am a firm believer that for most people there is more immediate and over-arching benefit from good shocks and sway bars. Both of which can overshadow the minor issues most around here might face from lifted short arm geometry.

In my case, the every day driving and general off road didn't change a whole lot after the Savvy mid arm. And no, there is nothing unstable about it. That is absolute hyperbole. Right now mine can easily do 75mph with two fingers on the wheel for hours on end and has the ability to make hard right turns that squeal the tires with one hand on the wheel. What I notice most often is an overall calmness and predictability in the way mine moves through an obstacle. There are no bad habits with the Savvy mid arm. But where we are and what we do, we are all getting through the same trails.

The three most dramatic changes happened after the mid arm. The rear outboard with a good tune, followed by the Swayloc, and finally the front shocks with an improved retune on all four corners. The Swayloc made street driving nicer. But the shocks did more to transform the Jeep for the better in most scenarios than anything else did. This is why I downplay geometry correction as a point of fixation, because mine has extremely good geometry correction that comes from a winning race team. And despite that pedigree, if I were to do it all over again, I would start with shocks long before any geometry correction.

 

[someguysjeep]

i'm sorry for not keeping up with all the geo correction bracket threads, i do try skim through sometimes.

i think i understand what the thought behind this geo correction kit is, but does this kit change available usable up travel?
and i'm not a fan of lowering the frame end of the LCA either, but if it's a SA behind a wheel (no protruding length forward) it's not a big deal i guess.
i think i saw you need to add some bump? that puts me out right away, not givin up room i just bought (but many others could/might with no ill effects depending on primary use).
as far as correction, i believe the link spread between upper and lower CA's might be helping considerably once wheel size increases.

both do things to fix what the 3"+ SA F's up.

 

[toximus]

they are adjustable to find pretty much whatever antisquat # you prefer.

For what applications do you find adjusting arms (and thus AS) is beneficial?

 

[Jorge Bolivar]

The geometry correction here in and of itself is interesting where it addresses roll center and potentially the antisquat. Potentially. I know what I was seeing, so I'm not on board yet. The rest comes across as a lot of uneeded hyperbole for the sake of a bolstering a sales pitch.

Why a mid arm? Because when you actually need to address geometry problems, then solve them. Before that, I am a firm believer that for most people there is more immediate and over-arching benefit from good shocks and sway bars. Both of which can overshadow the minor issues most around here might face from lifted short arm geometry.

In my case, the every day driving and general off road didn't change a whole lot after the Savvy mid arm. And no, there is nothing unstable about it. That is absolute hyperbole. Right now mine can easily do 75mph with two fingers on the wheel for hours on end and has the ability to make hard right turns that squeal the tires with one hand on the wheel. What I notice most often is an overall calmness and predictability in the way mine moves through an obstacle. There are no bad habits with the Savvy mid arm. But where we are and what we do, we are all getting through the same trails.

The three most dramatic changes happened after the mid arm. The rear outboard with a good tune, followed by the Swayloc, and finally the front shocks with an improved retune on all four corners. The Swayloc made street driving nicer. But the shocks did more to transform the Jeep for the better in most scenarios than anything else did. This is why I downplay geometry correction as a point of fixation, because mine has extremely good geometry correction that comes from a winning race team. And despite that pedigree, if I were to do it all over again, I would start with shocks long before any geometry correction.

What leads you to choose Mid Arm over the many solutions out there?

 

[Mike_H]

The geometry correction here in and of itself is interesting where it addresses roll center and potentially the antisquat. Potentially. I know what I was seeing, so I'm not on board yet. The rest comes across as a lot of uneeded hyperbole for the sake of a bolstering a sales pitch.

Why a mid arm? Because when you actually need to address geometry problems, then solve them. Before that, I am a firm believer that for most people there is more immediate and over-arching benefit from good shocks and sway bars. Both of which can overshadow the minor issues most around here might face from lifted short arm geometry.

In my case, the every day driving and general off road didn't change a whole lot after the Savvy mid arm. And no, there is nothing unstable about it. That is absolute hyperbole. Right now mine can easily do 75mph with two fingers on the wheel for hours on end and has the ability to make hard right turns that squeal the tires with one hand on the wheel. What I notice most often is an overall calmness and predictability in the way mine moves through an obstacle. There are no bad habits with the Savvy mid arm. But where we are and what we do, we are all getting through the same trails.

The three most dramatic changes happened after the mid arm. The rear outboard with a good tune, followed by the Swayloc, and finally the front shocks with an improved retune on all four corners. The Swayloc made street driving nicer. But the shocks did more to transform the Jeep for the better in most scenarios than anything else did. This is why I downplay geometry correction as a point of fixation, because mine has extremely good geometry correction that comes from a winning race team. And despite that pedigree, if I were to do it all over again, I would start with shocks long before any geometry correction.

You mention there isn't anything unstable about the midarm. Did you outboard and do the mid arms at the same time? Or did you have an opportunity to run one without the other? That's another one of those curious pieces for me. I know geo correction helps solve some problems. So do good shocks that are properly tuned. You say the shocks are more important that the geo. But what if the geo negates the need for expensive tuned shocks? I don't know that it does. That's not what I'm saying. But if shocks are the key to controlling wheel hop and roll characteristic on lifted TJ... What if you can "fix" the cause of the wheel hop and excessive roll before it even has an opportunity to start, so to speak?

I think that's why this intrigues me so much.

 

[toximus]

But what if the geo negates the need for expensive tuned shocks?

I can say for certain that excellent geometry can ride terribly with terribly tuned expensive shocks.