Doing It The Hard Way - JL Steering Box and a Front Stretch

[carrotman]

You can get the banjo adapter in different angles and then run straight -3 fitting braided lines. Lay it out so everywhere it uses a braided line can use the same length and then carry one as a spare. My rear is set up like this except for the long braided line that’s running down my upper link to the axle. You can also get -3 caps/plugs to block off a line if you have an issue. If you’ve got a race shop local to you they may be able to make the -3 lines in whatever length you need. Or check out SRI Performance. They’ll make them however you want.

I've seen angled banjos, but only angled in line with the bolt, not perpendicular to it like the stock JK lines. It might work anyways though, I'll have to just mock it up and see. Any reason not to use right angle AN lines, other than them being less generic and less easily replaced?

Overall I'm leaning towards the upside down caliper idea because its 8 less fittings and maybe $100 less to go with the type of lines I showed above vs getting all the banjos and 3/8-24 adapters

I'm planning on using the same type of line at each caliper, then a longer line running down the upper control arms, same for front and rear. My initial idea was to run a short AN line at each control arm joint then a hard line down the link bar, that way every braided line is the same, but its also a lot of extra connection points and complexity just to have a single spare line vs two.

 

[Rnuovrcj5]

I've seen angled banjos, but only angled in line with the bolt, not perpendicular to it like the stock JK lines. It might work anyways though, I'll have to just mock it up and see. Any reason not to use right angle AN lines, other than them being less generic and less easily replaced?

Overall I'm leaning towards the upside down caliper idea because its 8 less fittings and maybe $100 less to go with the type of lines I showed above vs getting all the banjos and 3/8-24 adapters

I'm planning on using the same type of line at each caliper, then a longer line running down the upper control arms, same for front and rear. My initial idea was to run a short AN line at each control arm joint then a hard line down the link bar, that way every braided line is the same, but its also a lot of extra connection points and complexity just to have a single spare line vs two.

Sounds like a solid plan. I think the banjos on mine are 45*. I know my long line has a 45* fitting on one end and a 90* on the other. Make sure they’re clocked correctly if you end up with any like that.

The upside down caliper thing will be a pain to bleed brakes but at the same time, how often do you really do that? If it drops the number of junctions by that much and works for you, I’d roll with it.

Edit: I found a pic of doing my rear brake stuff. The banjos are straight. So 90* to the bolt and essentially the same as those lines would be.

 

[carrotman]

Had to take a week off the Jeep due to getting a new roof on the garage. Got all the debris cleared out from their work and got the axle back in. Cycled the suspension and discovered the tire had a bit less clearance to the shock than expected under full articulation. I was able to get it to barely touch the shock by using a premium 1/4" wheel spacer though:

It was just touching the bracket itself without the spacer. I'm fine with this amount of rubbing and the 1/4" spacer. Well a real one.

Had to clearance the frame just a little bit more for the track bar.

And had to clearance the frame kind of a lot for the drag link:

I think when I was mocking everything up before I didn't have the caster set properly on my axle. I thought I did, but guess not. I have it set to 6° caster now, which is the minimum I want, and had to clear the frame this much for full articulation and locked to right steering. I was hoping for more like 8°, but the problem is that a small change has a pretty large effect on how high the drag link goes. As the axle rotates back, not only does the link go up, but the shock bracket goes down effectively increasing my up travel too. I'm glad I raised the frame up because without doing that I'd have about an inch of it left. This will probably get some external fish plates too.

 

[carrotman]

Got my track bar mount finished up today. First with the other side of the mount, just used cardboard to mock up the shape.

I've wanted to try making 3d printed dimple dies for a while, but haven't really had a use yet. I figured the brace between the mounting tabs would be a good reason to try it out though.

Just whipped up a quick model in Onshape and printed the parts in PETG.

Worked ok I guess but got pretty warpy.

After flattening the surrounding material back out with a 2" socket, the dimple isn't really all that pronounced. 11ga steel is just a bit much I think. I'm pretty sure I need to tweak the geometry of the die too, the chamfered part is a bit too small.

The plastic survived surprisingly well though. Some damage but I was half expecting it to explode in the press. Definitely not good for more than a few uses though.

The end result. A little underwhelming but hey, it was a fun experiment. The bracket looks a little weird around the top bolt but hoping it will all kind of blend in once it is painted black.

I really should get a welding blanket, dry cotton is maybe not the best choice here...

 

[carrotman]

Worked on the sway bar today. Mostly just throwing ideas at the wall and seeing what stuck.

Needed to bend the bar to clear the track bar bracket:

I didn't like how hard it was to bend in the press with my janky fixture, so I heated it up to about 600F which helped a lot.

Clears in all but the stiffest position, though I could always trim those threads a bit too if needed.

For the sway bar links, my first hairbrained idea was to make the link as short as possible and mount to the top of the TB bracket. This didn't go so great:

Next I moved it a bit forward to help with the angle of the link at droop, moved it a bit away from the wheel too, and made it a little longer.

That one worked a little better but it still hit the wheel and the link would have to mount about a mile away from the axle, which might be a bit silly on the driver side.

Next I tried to weave it in between everything:

That actually worked kind of OK and just barely cleared everything under most circumstances, but once the Antirock arm swung below horizontal from suspension droop and started pointing the link forward, it totally crashed into the drag link. Forgot to take a pick of it, but lets scrap that idea.

Next, I tried moving the link backwards and just making it a bit longer. This actually worked the best so far, but I'm not sure if there would be some weird loading characteristics with the Antirock arm at such an extreme angle at the top of it's travel. Like the axle is moving vertically but the link is moving at a 45° angle, so would the swaybar only affect it 50% as much? Physics nerds please chime in.

The arm being so high does cause it to hit the grille and fenders, but I might be able to bend the arm a bit more and at least clear the grille and bolt heads. May still need to cut up the fender.

I'm starting to wonder if it would be a reasonable idea to relocate the sway bar, but I don't know. I'm going to have to really think about this one, pretty tricky.

 

[carrotman]

I think I got the link in a better spot similar to how I had it yesterday at one point. Clearance is incredibly tight, but the angle is much better for both the link and the arm. Arm is basically level at ride height and not excessive at full stuff. Drag link barely touches it at full steering lock and full droop but I can mount it about 1/8" back and still be ok with the track bar. Might make a custom link with a weld in heim at the bottom to reduce the bulk a bit. It almost seems ridiculous that this is a good option, but I can't figure out a better one.

Full stuff

Tight clearance

Slight contact at full droop steering to lock right

Same for the left

Drawback with this is I am limited to using only hole position 4. Any other positions will cause stuff to crash. I guess if I find the spring rate of the sway bar is too soft at that position, I can move the whole bar rearwards and just trim the arms to clear the coil bucket. I bet I could move the antirock one hole position either way by making some custom delrin bushings for the front frame rail with an eccentric hole.

 

[carrotman]

I had to do something else other than mess with the sway bar, it was making me lose my mind.

Got the steering stabilizer mounted to the knuckle and tacked onto the axle where a proper mount needs to be made. Looks like I caught a break and positioned it well the first try. Clears everything at any articulation including the spring.

 

[Sj's TJ]

I had to do something else other than mess with the sway bar, it was making me lose my mind.

Got the steering stabilizer mounted to the knuckle and tacked onto the axle where a proper mount needs to be made. Looks like I caught a break and positioned it well the first try. Clears everything at any articulation including the spring.

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Really nice work, but man that is a lot going on there when you throw the sway bar link there with it. Is there a possibility to make the swap bar link higher than the TB bracket? I mean like a couple inches? I know I saw that the arm was getting close to the grill but maybe you can space the arm out a little on the torsion bar?

 

[carrotman]

Really nice work, but man that is a lot going on there when you throw the sway bar link there with it. Is there a possibility to make the swap bar link higher than the TB bracket? I mean like a couple inches? I know I saw that the arm was getting close to the grill but maybe you can space the arm out a little on the torsion bar?

Possibly. I mocked up what you are saying a couple posts back but I think I was focusing too much on getting all of the Antirock adjustment holes to work and the geometry suffered. I may try that again but pick one hole to stick to and get it optimal for that. It is at least worth exploring because yes I agree it looks crazy where all the linkages are intersecting.

 

[Sj's TJ]

Possibly. I mocked up what you are saying a couple posts back but I think I was focusing too much on getting all of the Antirock adjustment holes to work and the geometry suffered. I may try that again but pick one hole to stick to and get it optimal for that. It is at least worth exploring because yes I agree it looks crazy where all the linkages are intersecting.

I did see that mockup of the link on top of the axle side TB mount, but I'm thinking maybe even a little higher up. I remember my AR arms went way up into the wheel well, but I think you stretched out the front of the frame a little bit? That may be why you are now getting the grill interference. Just some thoughts I had looking at what you are dealing with.

 

[carrotman]

Ran out and got some hardware today. Needed a countersunk bolt to fix a clearance issue I had with the steering dampener. Still need to countersink the hole a little more, but I need a larger bit to finish it off. It still clears as is, barely. I have a longer bolt than the one pictured which also has a longer shank that I'll just trim to fit. Not sure it really matters but didn't want threads tearing up the bushing.

Thinking about getting a countersunk bolt for the axle side track bar mount too. The drag link still does catch the bolt head at certain positions. I just don't know if that style of bolt would be good for that application or not, I know worn out track bar bolt holes are a common cause for death wobble, and if I don't get the angle of the countersink just right it might act like a worn out hole.

I took SJ's advice and retried the sway bar mount above the track bar. I moved it a bit inboard and a little lower than before. Might be a little awkward getting the nut on with the track bar bracket kind of in the way, but I can make it work. The angles seem decent and I can use holes 3-5 without it touching the drag link. I haven't checked clearance with the wheel yet but I'm fairly certain it will be fine.

Full stuff, arm angle isn't too extreme.

Ride height, not too far from flat.

Full droop, plenty of angle left, not worried about inversion.

Mind the metal hot glue mess...

I put the grille back on to see when the arm would contact it, and it is good until about 34°

I put two more bends in the arm, one near the first hole to correct the angle, and one very slight bend closer to the splines to just nudge the whole thing out a little. I checked the other side and it still clears the track bar bracket on the frame, actually better than before. After this new bend, it doesn't touch the grille until about 38° of rotation which should be more than enough.

I played around with the link length a little more too and got it a little shorter without causing any inversion issues. Ride height is down to 7.5ish degrees, and full bump should be just under 30 now, so plenty of room for the grille. I used the old cut off sway bar link bracket to eyeball how it will look on the driver side, and it only needs to mount about 2" taller than the Artec one.

I need to get some shorter thready bits ordered for the links, total PITA to weld scrap metal on to try out different lengths over and over.

 

[Sj's TJ]

Ran out and got some hardware today. Needed a countersunk bolt to fix a clearance issue I had with the steering dampener. Still need to countersink the hole a little more, but I need a larger bit to finish it off. It still clears as is, barely. I have a longer bolt than the one pictured which also has a longer shank that I'll just trim to fit. Not sure it really matters but didn't want threads tearing up the bushing.
View attachment 509266

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Thinking about getting a countersunk bolt for the axle side track bar mount too. The drag link still does catch the bolt head at certain positions. I just don't know if that style of bolt would be good for that application or not, I know worn out track bar bolt holes are a common cause for death wobble, and if I don't get the angle of the countersink just right it might act like a worn out hole.

I took SJ's advice and retried the sway bar mount above the track bar. I moved it a bit inboard and a little lower than before. Might be a little awkward getting the nut on with the track bar bracket kind of in the way, but I can make it work. The angles seem decent and I can use holes 3-5 without it touching the drag link. I haven't checked clearance with the wheel yet but I'm fairly certain it will be fine.

Full stuff, arm angle isn't too extreme.
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Ride height, not too far from flat.
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Full droop, plenty of angle left, not worried about inversion.
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Mind the metal hot glue mess...
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I put the grille back on to see when the arm would contact it, and it is good until about 34°
View attachment 509267

I put two more bends in the arm, one near the first hole to correct the angle, and one very slight bend closer to the splines to just nudge the whole thing out a little. I checked the other side and it still clears the track bar bracket on the frame, actually better than before. After this new bend, it doesn't touch the grille until about 38° of rotation which should be more than enough.
View attachment 509269

I played around with the link length a little more too and got it a little shorter without causing any inversion issues. Ride height is down to 7.5ish degrees, and full bump should be just under 30 now, so plenty of room for the grille. I used the old cut off sway bar link bracket to eyeball how it will look on the driver side, and it only needs to mount about 2" taller than the Artec one.
View attachment 509268

I need to get some shorter thready bits ordered for the links, total PITA to weld scrap metal on to try out different lengths over and over.

I'm glad you were able to make it work. The extra bends in the arm seem to do the trick for clearance. Nicely done!

 

[Mike_H]

Be careful running your countersinks with a drill bit. Most flat head screws are 90 or 82 degree included. Drill bits are typically 118 degree included. That means you won’t have enough faying surface in contact and I can see that causing some handling issues

 

[carrotman]

Be careful running your countersinks with a drill bit. Most flat head screws are 90 or 82 degree included. Drill bits are typically 118 degree included. That means you won’t have enough faying surface in contact and I can see that causing some handling issues

Yep, good point. I made sure to use the correct 82° countersink for the steering stabilizer but yeah drilling it poorly and getting the contact area incorrect for the track bar does scare me a bit. After doing some digging on the subject, I did find that the FSAE does deem countersunk fasteners unsuitable for safety critical applications, for what it's worth. I might jut run with it as is for a while and see how bad the bolt dings up the bar over time.

 

[carrotman]

Alright, more progress. I was finally able to figure out the sway bar link mount and killed two birds with one stone while I was at it.

First, I chopped off the outside half of the track bar mount:

Next, I replaced the piece with a new one that was 3/16" thick instead of 1/4", and which also had bit of a different shape in order to mount a bit of tube to.

I also machined about 1/16" off the top of the bolt head as well. This gives me the needed clearance at any articulation for the drag link to never touch the bolt.

Used my mini mill like a lathe to make the mounting bushing as well as shave the bolt head:

The outside edge was tapered to act like a misalignment bushing for the heim.

Finishing up welding the plate on:

Made a top support too.

Enough space for a wrench:

Not too shabby! This took quite a bit of effort to figure out.

Now I've got to figure out how to get the sway bar link mounted in the same spot on the other side of the axle.

Oh one other thing, it was bothering me that I was only getting 6° of caster when I know I had set up everything for 8°. I think my issue ended up being that I was just using a ratchet strap between the shock bolts on the driver side when testing out different articulations, and it must not have been exactly right. I put the actual shock in there and tested through the range of motion again, at 8°, and everything looked much better. Still had to clearance the frame a little more, but less than 1/4". Gained back a little uptravel, springs unseat less quickly on droop, and the lower spring seat angle is a bit more favorable now. Glad I took a second look at that.

 

[carrotman]

Made a little tab for the steering stabilizer. Figured 11ga was plenty since it only sees as much force as however much dampening it provides.

Here is the new sway bar link. Got a cheap heim kit off Amazon with the bungs and everything. Looks like holes 2-5 will work fine on the antirock. #1 will likely require me to lengthen the link too much to get it to clear the drag link though. Totally fine with that.

My checklist is shrinking, I think what I have left to do before I pull the axle again for final welding and painting is:
- Driver side sway bar link mount
- Bend driver side antirock arm to match passenger side
- Finish making sway bar links
- Brake hose bulkhead mounts. (I'll do the hard lines when its back out)
- Fill in passenger side frame cutout
- Make and mount bump stop pads (I got some 4" diameter round UHMW a while ago for this)

The shock reservoirs are going to need to go somewhere but I think they need to be attached to the fenders, so not gonna worry about that yet. Hopefully I'm not forgetting anything.

 

[carrotman]

Used my mill incorrectly again to make a bushing. It's kinda fun...

I had to cut my tack welded track bar apart so that I could have a proper surface to weld to. Used the bushing as an intermediary piece to make it easier to get the length of the bar just right.

I stuffed the suspension to make sure the new piece still cleared the pitman arm, and wow, I can't get over how close everything ended up being.

 

[carrotman]

Decided to mess around with 3d printed dimple dies again. Worked a lot better this time. I used 14ga material instead of 11ga, which probably had a big part in why it worked better. The hole this time is just 1", and I used a 1/2" fillet instead of a 1/4" chamfer for the bendy part. So far I've pressed 4 holes with the same die and it is holding up fine, some wear but not too bad. Still using PETG but I think PLA might work better since it is stiffer. Tempted to try it in 11ga just to see if it looks any better than my last attempt.

Got the position set for my driver side sway bar mount, and got the links welded up too. Just need to reinforce the bracket now.

 

[carrotman]

Made this piece with my new fancy dimple die and... I kinda hate it. It made sense to support the top using the next closest solid piece which is the inner C, but it just doesn't look right with all the different angles everywhere. I also don't think it will be stiff enough.

I'm just gonna do this instead:

 

[carrotman]

Just like the CAD model, that turned out pretty good! Just gotta weld it on but that can happen with the axle out.