Happy Columbus Day

I don't disagree with any of that. It just sounds like an endorsement for publicly funded education for the purposes of the betterment of society. Pretty soon the people keep wanting more. ;)

I never said I would not compromise. I know we are all discussing here in theoreticals and actual results may vary, but I am more than willing to compromise for the good of all if the other side is also willing to compromise. And I get the irony of having to use Federal funds for this, but unlike federal theft, I am more than willing to donate money and my time to this cause because everybody wins and it makes this country a better place. You know, the old give a man a fish/teach a man to fish thing.

Funny that those rich folks that claim the rich should pay their fair share and that they wouldn't mind paying more in taxes, well they never pay more taxes than mandated. I'm sure the IRS would happily take their donations. Money where your mouth is

How does one educate the public to not rely so much on government assistance? The publicly funded schools?

State funded schools and volunteer programs. I know I could have 100s of people ready and willing to help in my area for no charge at all. Again, I get the irony, but we all could give a little more to our communities than we are willing to take. I have been through enough hurricanes to know the difference between those that scream for the government and those that help people they have never met just because its the right thing to do and we were blessed with the ability to do it.

Always remember that a government that has the power to give also have the power to take away. The same cannot be said about volunteers (most of them anyway.)
 
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Okay, here goes. Abolish the IRS (largest renter of office space in the US) immediately. Implement a flat tax (lets just arbitrarily say 20% here) with no deductions and no low income cutoff. If you make 1 dollar this year, you owe 20 cents. In addition, those that work on W2 can have that money deducted from payroll and need not file at the end of the year.
The rich would love this since so much of their wealth has little to do with direct income.

Abolish the Department of Education - Need I really describe the level of failure here? This should be handled by individual states and be monitored for federal funds if need be, but possibly offer an incentive not for hitting some arbitrary "line in the sand" but for progress across the board. Immediately allow charter schools to open where parents can choose to send their children to their school of choice. Bussing within districts will be provided by the state so that all can attend and schools with exceptional scores that fill up will be subject to immediate funds for expansion to accommodate additional students. Poorly run schools wil close and the property can be used for one of the better run schools to expand and accommodate additional students. We also need more money in our vocational schools.

Poor management is reason for better management, but eliminating any sort of federal-level restrictions on education would result in some massive differences in level of education between states. Trying to incentivize funding based on test scores also opens up all sorts of corruption and is already the core of what makes so many schools fail now. Many teachers are just teaching kids to pass specific tests instead of making sure that the kids understand the content and are engaged in learning. Without checks and balances on the content in those tests, you just further skew the problems.

Charter schools have been touted by politicians for a long time since they sound so good in theory, at least to people who have a lot of faith in the free market approach, but I haven't seen anything that has really sold me on them. Data on them seems to be particularly tough to cut through the bias on since all the sources I've seen with claims on how good/bad they are seem to have a strong agenda.

Ban all college student loans for non traditional degrees (traditional= engineering, medical, law etc) If you want a degree in women's studies or native american dance interpretation, that's cool. GET A JOB AND PAY FOR IT!
This seems to be an approach towards making a direct correlation between profitability of education and payout towards loans. Seems like a bit of a slippery slope since there's a lot of majors out there that have more abstract benefits towards society that are nonetheless worthwhile. Examples of this are things like theoretical physics, environmental science, etc. I get that you don't like the liberal hippy-dippy stuff, but I expect drawing that line is a lot harder in reality than it seems from a distance.

Ban additional assistance in the form of welfare and food stamps to families that are already receiving it for the first child and decide to have another child that they cannot afford. In addition, make all welfare money given to able body working age adults temporary. In other words, it runs out at some point so GET YO ASS TO WORK! And if you are already living below the poverty limit, use contraception and don't have another child. Here in La, if you get pregnant and are not married, you get a WIC check even if you are a millionaire. Sure sounds like promoting children to grow up in a single family to me.

Feel free to ask China how government restrictions on birth rate have worked out. I get your point though and I think providing free birth control to low income people would probably net better results without having to wield a heavy handed government role.

Abolish the EPA and federal parks system. Give ownership of those lands to the citizens of the state. There are reasons why middle class neighborhoods are nicer than the projects. When people have ownership of something they are more likely to protect and preserve that asset. Who possibly could be more disinterested in property value than a government bureaucrat (except for tax purposes.) Allow the citizens and the state to prosecute those that litter or pollute these lands, If your state is too lax, you have the choice to relocate, if the state is too tough, business has the right to relocate.
I expect the environment to go to shit very fast with that approach. You might get some decent management of direct pollution, but those prosecutions will get very messy very fast when it comes to the large scale pollution that's affecting areas beyond the U.S. Trying to retroactively govern pollution after it's happened via prosecution is akin to chasing ghosts. Once pollution goes downstream or goes in the air, determining who put it there and holding them responsible for it is nigh impossible.

Except in emergencies, congress is in session for two 3 month sessions. If you cant agree and get it done in that time, the voters will elect someone who will. 2 term limit on congressional seats and no lobbyists. Congress pays to get to and from these sessions and all business associated trips will be taken coach class. or preferrably by bus.

Go back to congress voting to send soldiers to war. In an emergency, the president can send troops to other countries, but that time is limited and if congress cannot decide, the troops get pulled back. None of this firing 25 tomahawk missiles crap. We do the damn thing or we stay the hell out of it.
Totally on board with this stuff.

When more power is given to the states (like with legalizing weed) one can choose either not to live in a state or move to a state that more fits your lifestyle.
To some degree, this is good, but push this to extremes and you cause major divides in the country. We don't need another civil war and even without that happening, moving to different states isn't realistic for a lot of people because of family, income, etc.

That's about all I have for now. Please feel free to dissect, but I think I just cut billions from the budget.
Done! I appreciate hearing your thoughts on all these topics, despite how far off topic we have now derailed this thread, rofl!

Are you saying that black folks are too stupid to pass a test? Sure sounds like it.

Maybe in the 1900's but in this day and age with the theft dollars we spend on public schools, illiteracy is no excuse.

and if they are illiterate, how about we spend some funds to teach them to read rather than accept that they can vote without educating themselves on the issues

Literacy tests weren't discriminatory because they tested literacy. They were discriminatory based on *how* they tested literacy.

They were disproportionately given to black voters and used a variety of trick questions with ambiguous wording that allowed the registrar to decide pass or fail without any real objectivity.

There's a lot of history on this topic that shows where the issues in this, seemingly good idea, allowed it to be an instrument of corruption and discrimination, but for a quick example of this, check out the link below for a look at a Louisiana "literacy" test from 1964:

http://www.openculture.com/2014/07/literacy-test-louisiana-used-to-suppress-the-black-vote.html
 
The rich would love this since so much of their wealth has little to do with direct income.

So be it. Just because some rich people benefit doesn't strike it off as a bad idea. If it was in effect when they were accruing said wealth, 20% would have been paid on it too. We have to get away from the class warfare in this country. Your statement is straight out of the class warfare handbook

Poor management is reason for better management, but eliminating any sort of federal-level restrictions on education would result in some massive differences in level of education between states. Trying to incentivize funding based on test scores also opens up all sorts of corruption and is already the core of what makes so many schools fail now. Many teachers are just teaching kids to pass specific tests instead of making sure that the kids understand the content and are engaged in learning. Without checks and balances on the content in those tests, you just further skew the problems.

Funny, my parents graduated from the local public high school just about the time that the Department of education was formed. It was a really good school back then, 39 years and 8 billion dollars per year (total, not just that school obviously) not so much. If you can name two good things the department did for modern schools (aside from just injecting money) I will gladly concede this point.


Charter schools have been touted by politicians for a long time since they sound so good in theory, at least to people who have a lot of faith in the free market approach, but I haven't seen anything that has really sold me on them. Data on them seems to be particularly tough to cut through the bias on since all the sources I've seen with claims on how good/bad they are seem to have a strong agenda.

I have first hand knowledge of this ones. Both of my daughters got accepted into the local charter school 3 years ago. It was the happiest day when I went withdraw them from the crappy public school (next door) and they started in the charter school. We had been trying to get them in for 4 years and finally succeeded. The curriculum is twice as challenging, yet one daughter went from a C to an A average with the other going from failing to a B student. The attention to individual students is outstanding with communication between teachers and parents being an expectation. That jackass of a principal had only one thing to say when I told him I was withdrawing my oldest daughter, "Man, you taking my test scores away and standardized testing is next week." What an asshole! Even though she was a C student, she excelled in standardized testing. I refuse to believe that this is not the norm, in my area at least, as I heard similar stories from other parents there about other schools in the district.

This seems to be an approach towards making a direct correlation between profitability of education and payout towards loans. Seems like a bit of a slippery slope since there's a lot of majors out there that have more abstract benefits towards society that are nonetheless worthwhile. Examples of this are things like theoretical physics, environmental science, etc. I get that you don't like the liberal hippy-dippy stuff, but I expect drawing that line is a lot harder in reality than it seems from a distance.

Great, but all children do not need to go to college. I'll do you one better. Student loans available only to students that maintain a minimum 3.2 average. You want an education that you cant afford? work for the grades. I just don't see how students with a 2.0 average think that they will repay 30-80 thousand in loans. They need to learn that if they want something, work for it. I don't see what is wrong with that, but I do see a problem with an establishment loaning money to a student with mediocre grades, no matter what the major.

Feel free to ask China how government restrictions on birth rate have worked out. I get your point though and I think providing free birth control to low income people would probably net better results without having to wield a heavy handed government role.

Baloney! I am not in any way shape or form endorsing birth rate restrictions. And free birth control is already offered to them. Any college infirmary or health clinic gives them out to anyone without question. Again, sometimes you have to just say, no. I will not finance your bad decisions. finance them on your own. I should not be forced to pay for people who rely on government assistance to reproduce at will. Please give me one example, just one, where I should have to pay for someones second of third child when I am already bankrolling their first
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I expect the environment to go to shit very fast with that approach. You might get some decent management of direct pollution, but those prosecutions will get very messy very fast when it comes to the large scale pollution that's affecting areas beyond the U.S. Trying to retroactively govern pollution after it's happened via prosecution is akin to chasing ghosts. Once pollution goes downstream or goes in the air, determining who put it there and holding them responsible for it is nigh impossible.



Quite to the contrary. The Property and Environment Research Center, PERC, has long shown that property rights empower us to conserve natural resources by making the environment an asset by giving owners an incentive for stewardship.



To some degree, this is good, but push this to extremes and you cause major divides in the country. We don't need another civil war and even without that happening, moving to different states isn't realistic for a lot of people because of family, income, etc.

If they are productive members of society, other states should court them. They do it by giving multimillion dollar corporations millions in tax cuts, why not for individuals? What more incentive do you need to save money and not squander it while becoming a productive member of society? If you sit on your ass all day waiting for a check, then so what? I'm supposed to care about that, why?


Done! I appreciate hearing your thoughts on all these topics, despite how far off topic we have now derailed this thread, rofl!

But it was so much fun!


Literacy tests weren't discriminatory because they tested literacy. They were discriminatory based on *how* they tested literacy.

They were disproportionately given to black voters and used a variety of trick questions with ambiguous wording that allowed the registrar to decide pass or fail without any real objectivity.

There's a lot of history on this topic that shows where the issues in this, seemingly good idea, allowed it to be an instrument of corruption and discrimination, but for a quick example of this, check out the link below for a look at a Louisiana "literacy" test from 1964:

http://www.openculture.com/2014/07/literacy-test-louisiana-used-to-suppress-the-black-vote.html

I am very well versed in Louisiana history and I still think that Democrats did awful things to black folks while Republicans were trying to lift them up. I want them to take the citizenship test that exists right now, with no changes made. Have you taken it? They made us in civics class, except our passing grade had to be 100%. I do now and always will insist that voters must understand how the government works in order to vote for a better one. The method of how they get there doesn't really matter much and knowledge is always power, while money is not always power.

I want to give all citizens, no matter race, creed, ethnicity or financial status the power to enjoy everything this country has to offer without depending on government assistance unless a last resort.
 
So be it. Just because some rich people benefit doesn't strike it off as a bad idea. If it was in effect when they were accruing said wealth, 20% would have been paid on it too. We have to get away from the class warfare in this country. Your statement is straight out of the class warfare handbook
You use the term "class warfare" as a way of insinuating that falling under that distinction is inherently bad, but I don't hear what is actually wrong with it.

I don't mean that we should just have people fight with one another just because they fall into different classes, but I also know that there are some deep-seated problems in our society that are tied to the way that wealth works. Those who have wealth and power have continued to make it easier and easier to stay wealthy and in power while making it harder for others to gain the same.

I personally believe that anyone who gets nice things in life should be actually doing something to deserve it. I also think that there's a limit to how much more we can consider one person to be worth than everyone else.

However, we've instead built a system that makes it easier and easier to become rich as you gain wealth while making it harder and harder to break out of poverty, based on how poor you are.

*People should be rewarded for how productive they are to society, not based on how many rewards they have already acquired.*

On top of all this, rich people will cost you more money than any poor person on welfare ever will.

Consider that there were $1.15 trillion in tax break entitlements for the top 1% in 2016. That dwarfs the entire $740 billion spent on the poor.

The rich are a much bigger tax burden on the average U.S. citizen, so it's no wonder they spend so much to pump up conservative media that hyper-focuses on stereotyping poor people as lazy and greedy.

Funny, my parents graduated from the local public high school just about the time that the Department of education was formed. It was a really good school back then, 39 years and 8 billion dollars per year (total, not just that school obviously) not so much. If you can name two good things the department did for modern schools (aside from just injecting money) I will gladly concede this point.
I'm not a major advocate for the department, but I do believe there are at least two benefits:
1) Collection of data.
By collecting data at the federal level, we have a much better understanding of how schools across the U.S. perform as well as what works in various areas and what doesn't. Good policies only come when we have good data to understand problems.
2) Enforcement of Civil Rights.
This department ensures that the civil rights upheld by our government and constitution are upheld within schools and that students are not discriminated upon based on protected identities.

But I get that a very large part of this organization is based around federal grants and loans that often go to students who don't graduate, change major a million times, or that graduate with a major that doesn't get that student a decent job. There's certainly a lot that needs to be addressed here. My better half has worked as an academic advisor in the past, so I'm well familiar with the clusterfuck that surrounds financial aid.



I have first hand knowledge of this ones. Both of my daughters got accepted into the local charter school 3 years ago. It was the happiest day when I went withdraw them from the crappy public school (next door) and they started in the charter school. We had been trying to get them in for 4 years and finally succeeded. The curriculum is twice as challenging, yet one daughter went from a C to an A average with the other going from failing to a B student. The attention to individual students is outstanding with communication between teachers and parents being an expectation. That jackass of a principal had only one thing to say when I told him I was withdrawing my oldest daughter, "Man, you taking my test scores away and standardized testing is next week." What an asshole! Even though she was a C student, she excelled in standardized testing. I refuse to believe that this is not the norm, in my area at least, as I heard similar stories from other parents there about other schools in the district.
I'll concede that point. I don't think this necessarily proves charter schools to be a scale-able solution for all students, but I don't have any kids and don't have any better solution either.



Great, but all children do not need to go to college. I'll do you one better. Student loans available only to students that maintain a minimum 3.2 average. You want an education that you cant afford? work for the grades. I just don't see how students with a 2.0 average think that they will repay 30-80 thousand in loans. They need to learn that if they want something, work for it. I don't see what is wrong with that, but I do see a problem with an establishment loaning money to a student with mediocre grades, no matter what the major.
As mentioned, I do think that there should be better management of student loans and such, but I don't think this would be any different from just saying that you fail a class for getting low grades unless your daddy is rich enough to pay for your full ride through college. The poor students in college already have to work harder than the rich kids just to make the same grades since they're more likely to be working a job on the side or have to help support a family at home.

Students should get ahead based on their effort, not the size of their parent's bank account.

Baloney! I am not in any way shape or form endorsing birth rate restrictions. And free birth control is already offered to them. Any college infirmary or health clinic gives them out to anyone without question. Again, sometimes you have to just say, no. I will not finance your bad decisions. finance them on your own. I should not be forced to pay for people who rely on government assistance to reproduce at will. Please give me one example, just one, where I should have to pay for someones second of third child when I am already bankrolling their first

When we share the world with others, we will always end up paying to some extent to make up for mistakes and failures of others. I don't see why a poor person having too many babies is a bigger deal than all the other areas where tax dollars and other indirect costs take away from our personal gain.


Quite to the contrary. The Property and Environment Research Center, PERC, has long shown that property rights empower us to conserve natural resources by making the environment an asset by giving owners an incentive for stewardship.
I'd be interested to see the source on this.



If they are productive members of society, other states should court them. They do it by giving multimillion dollar corporations millions in tax cuts, why not for individuals? What more incentive do you need to save money and not squander it while becoming a productive member of society? If you sit on your ass all day waiting for a check, then so what? I'm supposed to care about that, why?
That sounds a lot like how states compete over giving major tax breaks to companies in order to court them to their states. It doesn't give any more jobs to the U.S. than we would get otherwise. It just increases the profit margin for the people running the companies and simply moves jobs from one state to another.


I am very well versed in Louisiana history and I still think that Democrats did awful things to black folks while Republicans were trying to lift them up. I want them to take the citizenship test that exists right now, with no changes made. Have you taken it? They made us in civics class, except our passing grade had to be 100%. I do now and always will insist that voters must understand how the government works in order to vote for a better one. The method of how they get there doesn't really matter much and knowledge is always power, while money is not always power.

I want to give all citizens, no matter race, creed, ethnicity or financial status the power to enjoy everything this country has to offer without depending on government assistance unless a last resort.

I have not taken the test and from what I know of it (relatively little), it is a good test. However, I don't believe that anything like this would ever be pulled off without someone in power corrupting it for their own personal gain.
 
Right on man. I can tell you put some thought into those answers and I don't have the energy to do all of that again, lol. But just a few things

As to class warfare, some of the rich people work for what they have and I think some of the less fortunate think that all rich people have everything given to them and there is a just way to regulate business that will not benefit any of the rich out there while helping raise the poor and I don't see it. Someone could come up with a really good idea to benefit all people, but someone will cry because the rich benefit, but won't they always? (Aside from just having the government confiscate a portion of their stuff, which I know you wouldn't support, right?)

I'm sorry if you think that poor people have a right to my money just because they want to have multiple babies that they can't afford. If they can't afford a car and I have 2, they don't have a right to that any more than my money. Everyone should know the joy of being a parent and I will gladly support that in theory, but the thought a single mother with multiple children, some from different father's has more of a claim to my paycheck than I do... I just cannot argue with someone that sees any logic in that.

Two suggestions, watch Idiocracy and take the citizenship test. It's available online for free. It's been years since my civics class and I missed a few. I might have had to study before I get to vote again. Hahahaha
 
Two things to note there.

1- the stock market itself is a corrupt shell game.

2 - the American factory worker's wages stagnated right about the time the internet blossomed which made information cheap. At that point, working on an assembly line for 15 years no longer had the same clout, as the information gained was now was becoming readily available with the clock of a mouse

Also, if GM made such windfall buying back stock, why did they need a government bailout? Seems fraudulent to me. Someone should investigate that
 
Right on man. I can tell you put some thought into those answers and I don't have the energy to do all of that again, lol. But just a few things

As to class warfare, some of the rich people work for what they have and I think some of the less fortunate think that all rich people have everything given to them and there is a just way to regulate business that will not benefit any of the rich out there while helping raise the poor and I don't see it. Someone could come up with a really good idea to benefit all people, but someone will cry because the rich benefit, but won't they always? (Aside from just having the government confiscate a portion of their stuff, which I know you wouldn't support, right?)

I'm sorry if you think that poor people have a right to my money just because they want to have multiple babies that they can't afford. If they can't afford a car and I have 2, they don't have a right to that any more than my money. Everyone should know the joy of being a parent and I will gladly support that in theory, but the thought a single mother with multiple children, some from different father's has more of a claim to my paycheck than I do... I just cannot argue with someone that sees any logic in that.

Two suggestions, watch Idiocracy and take the citizenship test. It's available online for free. It's been years since my civics class and I missed a few. I might have had to study before I get to vote again. Hahahaha

i don’t work in absolutes when talking about the wealthy. I definitely believe that people who work hard, work smart, and provide something useful to society deserve to live a comfortable life. I just don’t think that their wealth should be limitless, nor do I think that they should be entitled to more wealth just because they already have some wealth.

Take a look at what happened to earnings for the top 1% since the 80s. Do you think that these people were under-compensated back then? If not, why did they suddenly deserve to jump 226% when everyone else saw so much less of an increase.

This is why tax cuts don’t work like they did in the Reagan era. This is why both the Bush and Trump tax cuts never paid for themselves, let alone create the economic growth promised. The wealth isn’t trickling downanymore.

1571705613827.png

https://www.cbpp.org/income-gains-at-the-top-dwarf-those-of-low-and-middle-income-households-6
And I simply believe everyone has the right to basic life. I’m not a Christian anymore, but I still believe that doing right in life means taking care of people less fortunate than you to some extent. So yea, my tax dollars can go to providing towards safety net programs. Who knows, maybe someday I’ll end up with a streak of bad luck and will need them myself. My spouse went from being homeless to being a Graduate (Magna Cum Laude) with a masters degree and is a healthy contributor to society because of some of those programs.

As for kids, it’s not my place to tell someone how many babies they should or shouldn’t have. Sure, I think people should make sure that they have a solid financial standing to support their kids, but I also understand that for many poor people, it actually makes sense to have more kids. When you’re poor, you don’t have a solid retirement savings to lean on when you get older, so having more kids means you have more family that’s able to take care of you when you get older. That’s especially been the culture for many people who come from other countries.

And it’s not necessarily bad for the rest of us either. When we get older, we’ll need the old folks homes staffed with people willing to remind us to take our meds and clean our asses up when we shit ourselves and such. Gettin’ old ain’t pretty and Japan is a modern example of what a struggle it can be for a country when your elderly population so far exceeds your younger population.

Oh, and I’ve definitely seen Idiocracy.
 
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There is way too much here for me to comment on at once.

Touching on education, I agree with Bofa-deez. Not everyone needs to go to college. My wife went. She is successful at her job. Not even remotely close to her degree. I have guys that work for me at my job. One does pretty good estimating in the construction field. That kid was a business major. Another has a civil engineering degree. He can barley formulate how to dig a hole in the ground. Me? Proud high school grad overseeing all thier work.

As for student loans, heck with our tax dollars paying for more time for these kids to slack off. Have the collages fund the loans themselves. Thier guarantee to get repaid is dependent on the quality of education and job placement afterwards for the num-nums to pay off the loans. I bet less time would be spent on the socialist agenda and more on practical education.
 
For class warfare, people have more than I do. Guess what? That gives them the ability to pay me to do stuff for them. Now I am doing well. Guess what? I pay people to do stuff for me.

Not everything but more than I do when I was not doing as well. It is what Regan referred to as the trickle down effect. It works despite what the media tells you.
 
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i don’t work in absolutes when talking about the wealthy. I definitely believe that people who work hard, work smart, and provide something useful to society deserve to live a comfortable life. I just don’t think that their wealth should be limitless, nor do I think that they should be entitled to more wealth just because they already have some wealth.

Take a look at what happened to earnings for the top 1% since the 80s. Do you think that these people were under-compensated back then? If not, why did they suddenly deserve to jump 226% when everyone else saw so much less of an increase.

This is why tax cuts don’t work like they did in the Reagan era. This is why both the Bush and Trump tax cuts never paid for themselves, let alone create the economic growth promised. The wealth isn’t trickling downanymore.

View attachment 121094
https://www.cbpp.org/income-gains-at-the-top-dwarf-those-of-low-and-middle-income-households-6
And I simply believe everyone has the right to basic life. I’m not a Christian anymore, but I still believe that doing right in life means taking care of people less fortunate than you to some extent. So yea, my tax dollars can go to providing towards safety net programs. Who knows, maybe someday I’ll end up with a streak of bad luck and will need them myself. My spouse went from being homeless to being a Graduate (Magna Cum Laude) with a masters degree and is a healthy contributor to society because of some of those programs.

As for kids, it’s not my place to tell someone how many babies they should or shouldn’t have. Sure, I think people should make sure that they have a solid financial standing to support their kids, but I also understand that for many poor people, it actually makes sense to have more kids. When you’re poor, you don’t have a solid retirement savings to lean on when you get older, so having more kids means you have more family that’s able to take care of you when you get older. That’s especially been the culture for many people who come from other countries.

And it’s not necessarily bad for the rest of us either. When we get older, we’ll need the old folks homes staffed with people willing to remind us to take our meds and clean our asses up when we shit ourselves and such. Gettin’ old ain’t pretty and Japan is a modern example of what a struggle it can be for a country when your elderly population so far exceeds your younger population.

Oh, and I’ve definitely seen Idiocracy.

Notice how volatile that line is for the rich. They lost 100% of their base wealth in the first 3 years of the 2000s and over 150% around 5 years later then around another 80% give years later. What if these lines don't reflect the same exact people over that time and some of them went completely bankrupt while others took their place? I mean a graph is fine but I could adjust axis values and make it look completely different.

Here's one for you: how many on that graph you think may be congressional members using taxpayer money to swindle the public out of millions? Over 400k per year is the top 1% of earners... Most of Congress is there... You think they are going to help the poor?

There is no sound economic policy that the rich will not benefit from. If that's your goal, just stop making economic policy all together. The rich will always make theirs, in this country or another. It's still a free country, so run them off to another country if you want, but these guys hire people and if you think running them off will help, I'll sit here drinking beer and watch how that turns out for you
 
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That socialist Bernie seems to do well with multiple beach houses, but I don't care. I want what's mine and I bust my ass for it. I don't care what my neighbor has as long as I'm happy.

Man, I promised myself I would bow out of this one today...
 
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Notice how volatile that line is for the rich. They lost 100% of their base wealth in the first 3 years of the 2000s and over 150% around 5 years later then around another 80% give years later. What if these lines don't reflect the same exact people over that time and some of them went completely bankrupt while others took their place? I mean a graph is fine but I could adjust axis values and make it look completely different.

Here's one for you: how many on that graph you think may be congressional members using taxpayer money to swindle the public out of millions? Over 400k per year is the top 1% of earners... Most of Congress is there... You think they are going to help the poor?

There is no sound economic policy that the rich will not benefit from. If that's your goal, just stop making economic policy all together. The rich will always make theirs, in this country or another. It's still a free country, so run them off to another country if you want, but these guys hire people and if you think running them off will help, I'll sit here drinking beer and watch how that turns out for you
I think you have the top 1% confused with normal rich people. To be in the top 1%, your net worth has to be at least $10.4 billion. That's more than 3 times the estimated net worth of Donald Trump.

No one in congress comes close to that. The richest current congressman (Rep. Darrell Issa) has a net worth of $284 million (with an 'm', not a 'b'). Anyone in the top 1% could make any beggar on the street worth that much without hardly impacting their worth.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_current_members_of_the_United_States_Congress_by_wealth.

When you look at the richest politicians of all time, the highest you will find (Ross Perot) still had less than half of what it would take to make the top 1% (although adjusting for inflation may bump him up a bit).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_richest_American_politicians
People talk all the time about the Clintons getting rich, but they're still not even close to hitting the $1 billion mark, let alone the $10 billion mark.

So, when I talk about the top 1%, as in that previous graph, I'm not talking about any politician. Their income growth rate is pretty normal compared to the rest of us. When people talk about income inequality, that's also who they are talking about.



And these numbers are truly massive. I know a lot of people don't like anyone talking down on the rich since they are considered people who worked hard or are seen as worthwhile contributors to society, but when people dismiss inequality discussions over that, they miss comprehending exactly what some of these numbers really mean. And it's understandable. It's easy to see all the rich as people who have seemingly unlimited means for a luxurious lifestyle as the same, but inequality isn't about dealing with most rich people. Most rich people are about as rich as most people have always been.

1571746093209.png


If_US_land_mass_were_distributed_like_US_wealth.png

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wealt...land_mass_were_distributed_like_US_wealth.png
(of all current politicians, none would fit in the top 1% and only Trump would fit in the top 9%)
https://dqydj.com/net-worth-brackets-wealth-brackets-one-percent/
 
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All this because Christopher Columbus sailed across the Atlantic 4 times and made it possible for the masses due to his great notes. Ha, ha, ha. Gotta be someone to blame.

I watched that 60 minutes. It was actually pretty good. I am not sure I saw the very beginning though, so maybe I missed some of it. I didn't want to watch the "Tree of Live" part. Too close to home and I don't want to relive it over and over. It is talked about enough in our hometown here without seeing it there.

I was visiting an old war sight from the mid 1700's where George Washington led troops. What occurred to me is there are winners and losers in life. We are lucky to be able to relax on the sidelines since we are living in a very great country. It is the greatest country really on so many levels. We live well because of what we became here in the US. A very free country with opportunities not seen elsewhere. We sure got lucky. Sadly when you live so well for so long, you get pretty spoiled. That seems to be the undoing of dominate countries or civilizations. I view socialism as our undoing really. I don't want to live under that much government rule. Some programs are okay to help those in real need, but that is as close as socialism as I want to get. People focus on the 1% are those pushing for socialism and I have even seen communism. Geez. I don't care about 1% of the population much. To get that much money you probably aren't a very good person, but so what. Lots of bad people have nothing to.
 
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That socialist Bernie seems to do well with multiple beach houses, but I don't care. I want what's mine and I bust my ass for it. I don't care what my neighbor has as long as I'm happy.
I thought you cared about whether your neighbor was taking your tax money? Is it ok for rich neighbors to take tax money, but not ok for poor neighbors to do the same?

Man, I promised myself I would bow out of this one today...


 
All this because Christopher Columbus sailed across the Atlantic 4 times and made it possible for the masses due to his great notes. Ha, ha, ha. Gotta be someone to blame.

I watched that 60 minutes. It was actually pretty good. I am not sure I saw the very beginning though, so maybe I missed some of it. I didn't want to watch the "Tree of Live" part. Too close to home and I don't want to relive it over and over. It is talked about enough in our hometown here without seeing it there.

I was visiting an old war sight from the mid 1700's where George Washington led troops. What occurred to me is there are winners and losers in life. We are lucky to be able to relax on the sidelines since we are living in a very great country. It is the greatest country really on so many levels. We live well because of what we became here in the US. A very free country with opportunities not seen elsewhere. We sure got lucky. Sadly when you live so well for so long, you get pretty spoiled. That seems to be the undoing of dominate countries or civilizations. I view socialism as our undoing really. I don't want to live under that much government rule. Some programs are okay to help those in real need, but that is as close as socialism as I want to get. People focus on the 1% are those pushing for socialism and I have even seen communism. Geez. I don't care about 1% of the population much. To get that much money you probably aren't a very good person, but so what. Lots of bad people have nothing to.

I watched it and it was pretty good. You didn't miss much except them blaming everything on Trump except the stolen Columbus letters. :ROFLMAO:

The thing that struck me about the shooting is that after it happened, Muslims, Christians, Jews and Baptists all came together for a common cause. Listening to the MSM, you would be led to believe that these people hate each other with a passion. The more I live the more I see that in middle America most whites and blacks get along, most Muslims aren't radicalized terrorists, and most people will help others in time of need no matter race, creed or financial standing. If our society has any chance of surviving, we need to start focusing on the good things we have in common.

That's not to say we shouldn't engage in debate like we have here in this thread. How else would we learn about each other?

Don't tell @Equilibrium31 , but if we had a beer together, I would have more in common with him than he might believe 😉
 
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I thought you cared about whether your neighbor was taking your tax money? Is it ok for rich neighbors to take tax money, but not ok for poor neighbors to do the same?

Nope. I thought we had established that I was an equal opportunity hater. I never said it was okay, what I was getting at is that I cant let it affect my life to the point that I would lose sleep over it because I have more important things to do today. It is disgusting, but I shall live another day, just as I will pay my taxes for wasteful spending this year and the next and the one after that.

But should there ever come a time where I have to pick a side and fight for what I believe... Well, I guess we shall see
 
Nope. I thought we had established that I was an equal opportunity hater. I never said it was okay, what I was getting at is that I cant let it affect my life to the point that I would lose sleep over it because I have more important things to do today. It is disgusting, but I shall live another day, just as I will pay my taxes for wasteful spending this year and the next and the one after that.

But should there ever come a time where I have to pick a side and fight for what I believe... Well, I guess we shall see
Fair enough. (y)