OP
You hear that @mrblaine, you're just not setting them up correctly, that's your problem 
Is there such thing as a "good" performance aluminum radiator for the TJ?
- Thread starter Chris
- Start date
Understand that more rows in a radiator does not usually provide better cooling. In fact more rows can negatively affect cooling in many situations by restricting air flow. One example is that in 98 or 99 Jeep went from a 2 row radiator to a 1 row radiator for better cooling characteristics. Yes I know 3 rows sounds better than 1 row to many but more rows were only better before aluminum core radiators became popular. The Mopar radiator has an all aluminum core.
This from https://www.dewitts.com/blogs/news/14141757-are-three-row-aluminum-radiators-better-than-two
"In the old days of copper and brass radiators this was true. More rows meant more surface area in contact with the fin and consequently a higher heat rejection. So a 3 row was better than a two row and so on.
When aluminum radiators came around the rules changed. Cooling engineers concluded that by lowering the fin height you could stack more layers of tubes. In addition, using wider tubes would increase the tube-to-fin contact area. The end result was a very high performance radiator with a huge savings in weight."
Better aluminum designs now cool better with just a single row design like the later Mopar radiator has.
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I have the Banks turbo with intercooler. Banks specifically says to use the stock Mopar radiator to avoid overheating. I have the Mopar and have had no problems to date although my radiator just cracked at 100k miles. I don't think that is unreasonable for lifetime.
What problem did yours solve that my simple OEM cooling arrangement isn't already accomplishing?
Squirrel Trap
New Member
Plenty of guys do...plenty of guys run the stock plastic gas tank and skid forever too because they just work...IMnsHO and experience with MY setup is what I supplied.
Fair enough. Mine is a go anywhere daily driver that I'm fairly certain gets asked to do more and go further than many TJs out there. Many pieces are no longer stock because stock is no longer adequate. But, so far in my 80k miles of ownership, the stock cooling system is not one of those things I have found the need screw around with very much. In fact, when I have made changes, I created problems for myself.
Not to pour gas on what appears to be just an ember of dischord, but all parties are correct. The engineers at Jeep spec'd out a decent (adequate plus a certain overkill factor) cooling system to be sure. That being said, there are a number of aftermarket possibilities that could be every bit as effective. Obviously (or at least apparently) those who run in @Jerry Bransford neck of the woods don't need them so they get no "press" from that end. That is excellent as those apparatuses aren't free and there's no sense in paying for parts one doesn't "need" when instead we can pay for other parts we "want".
There are folks in other automotive disciplines that do need enhanced capability in that regard and they can find it in the aftermarket. @Chris needs something for a non OEM setup, so it is perfectly logical and likely that his salvation will indeed come from a modified or custom arrangement.
There is nothing inherently wrong with or lacking in electric fans, aluminum radiators, or combinations of the two. I have been using both in motorsports effectively for nearly 4 decades in disciplines from SCORE to NASCAR and many in between.
To imply they "do not work" in general or are somehow "less than" the OEM system is wrong and flinging virtual poo at a viable solution to some members needs. They are simply an alternative, and within that realm of alternatives there are parts that are more suitable for certain applications and other parts that are less suitable. Just as we have many experts here for certain parts or subsystems, there are others out there who have the cooling side of things pretty squared away.
There are folks in other automotive disciplines that do need enhanced capability in that regard and they can find it in the aftermarket. @Chris needs something for a non OEM setup, so it is perfectly logical and likely that his salvation will indeed come from a modified or custom arrangement.
There is nothing inherently wrong with or lacking in electric fans, aluminum radiators, or combinations of the two. I have been using both in motorsports effectively for nearly 4 decades in disciplines from SCORE to NASCAR and many in between.
To imply they "do not work" in general or are somehow "less than" the OEM system is wrong and flinging virtual poo at a viable solution to some members needs. They are simply an alternative, and within that realm of alternatives there are parts that are more suitable for certain applications and other parts that are less suitable. Just as we have many experts here for certain parts or subsystems, there are others out there who have the cooling side of things pretty squared away.
Squirrel Trap
New Member
At the end of the day, it all comes down to solving a problem. If there is no problem to be solved, then what exactly are we debating? Why do I want to change or redesign my cooling system when the one that I have is proven to be effective, reliable and long lived? What problem is being solved by running a different cooling system on our reasonably stock TJ engines?
Squirrel Trap
New Member
In my case, durability and I WANTED an electric fan setup that increased how I wanted my Jeep to perform for MY particular setup. The whole thread is in response to someone who HAS to run a different setup so maybe go back and read why I wrote what I wrote. It's not like I've decided that wooden square blocks are better than tires and I'm certainly not trying to clone Jerry's or your Jeep so I'm pretty sure everyone is square on the situation...
What specific performance increases did you find? It sounds like from your earlier posts you mostly converted in order to gain a little more power.
Squirrel Trap
New Member
You hear that @mrblaine, you're just not setting them up correctly, that's your problem
Ya because that was what was said...
What you missed in this latest sub-discussion is we're not talking about anything but the TJ with the 4.0L engine. We're not talking NASCAR or SCORE where you don't typically see Wrangler TJs with either of those engines OF COURSE electric fans work fine in some applications, I wouldn't trade a serpentine belt driven fan in my wife's car for its electric fan. It works great in that specific application. My comments about electric fan conversions not working as well for the 2.5/4.0 are solely confined to those two engines inside the Wrangler TJ.
And the OP didn't "need" a non-OEM set up, he said he simply wanted to do it... likely thinking as some do that it would probably work better or he just thought it sounded like a cool idea. But the more experience one has with the Wrangler TJ running the 2.5/4.0 engines, the less likely you'll want to do that conversion. With sufficient experience, particularly if you wheel in areas that tend to get hot as it does in some areas like my SoCal deserts do, you won't want to do it at all. It has been well-proven (!!) that the OE cooling design is more than up to keeping the engine cool in the most extreme conditions like we have here in SoCal. If it's not up to the job, fix the issue making it not up to the job. It has more than enough reserve capacity to keep up with the hottest conditions. What is lacking in home-made designs is that reserve/excess cooling capacity that becomes a big issue in tough conditions... when you need it the most.
Which brings up where energy is concerned, there is no such thing as a "free lunch". If you move driving the fan from the engine to the alternator, you've only moved the drag required from the engine to the alternator. Yes an alternator becomes harder to turn the more load that is on it. Listen to what a power generator does when the big lights are shut on... the engine rpms suddenly drop for a second or two until the engine governor can bring the rpms back up again.
Squirrel Trap
New Member
In my case, HP was a hope and a prayer but I'm well aware of the negligibility of mods to the squirrel to get those gains. The only performance gains that I am reporting are less than measurable for the most part like the engine runs smoother. More measurable is that I can pull the same stretch of hill on the highway in 4th and I used to have to downshift halfway up. But again there are always a ton of factors so again not real scientific. The engine is holding a much more contant temperature in every condition at about 4 degrees cooler than before. I wasn't having overheating problems or anything before but like I said, for whatever reason I've had 3 stock radiators in 9 years that all started leaking at the top where the plastic is mated to the metal. So for me that was the primary reason and getting rid of any parasitic rotational loss the fan and clutch caused.
Pretty much exactly what you said based on this cut and paste from your post-
There are also a LOT of guys setting them up incorrectly.
Wanting to do it versus needing to is pure semantics. There is a potential desire due to a possible need for more than OEM brings to the table including the apparent "reserve/excess" capability. I didn't miss anything but perhaps you did. I was simply wondering why there is apparent butthurt over someone suggesting that they have a system that works as well as or better than OEM. I don't understand why someone feels the need to piss in the Cheerios of someone who swapped and is happy with their results. Isn't it their Jeep, not one that runs in JV or is owned by anyone else?
This is like the question- What tires work in Moab? All of them do you fucking moron, you're driving on the highest traction surface known to man. Or put another way, what radiator do you need for a 4 banger? Just go grab one, it doesn't matter.
Squirrel Trap
New Member
Yes MOPAR for 2 and the last one was NAPA. I have a friend who ownes a couple dealerships and another that runs a NAPA store. So great pricing. Mileage is not even part of the equation, Jeep goes less than 500 miles per year on the actual pavement. On all three the area where the plastic top is mated to the metal started leaking.