Jeep Wrangler X illegally sold

[cpwolf]

The way I understood what he said somewhere in this thread (or I guess I could have imagined it) is that he worked with his friend prior to his death to change the title to his (OP's) name only shortly before he died. The deceased's family found the old title with both names and sold the jeep with that.

Oh, got it. I'm sure younger Gen's would call it some sort of disorder....but I just can't read 50 lines with zero breaks, so I probably missed that detail.

Kind of strange to work with a joint owner to get HIS name taken off of the Jeep....but then he keeps the Jeep? Whatever, this is why you don't buy stuff with other people I guess.

 

[Mr. Bills]

There are many inconsistencies in @Eamethyst's story and many of his (her?) legal conclusions are just plain wrong.

I'm all for helping out a fellow jeeper, but it is clear that this person is no jeeper and he (she?) only joined this forum to rant about an allegedly stolen jeep.

I'm out.

 

[cpwolf]

There are many inconsistencies in @Eamethyst's story and many of his (her?) legal conclusions are just plain wrong.

I'm all for helping out a fellow jeeper, but it is clear that this person is no jeeper and he (she?) only joined this forum to rant about an allegedly stolen jeep.

I'm out.

I think they are hoping that the person that bought the Jeep, will come on this Forum and see this, and message him "Hey, I bought this Jeep." and he can then come and call the local police to have it impounded as stolen.

 

[MountaineerTom]

The way I understood what he said somewhere in this thread (or I guess I could have imagined it) is that he worked with his friend prior to his death to change the title to his (OP's) name only shortly before he died. The deceased's family found the old title with both names and sold the jeep with that.

That’s what I understood too.

 

[TheBoogieman]

I think they are hoping that the person that bought the Jeep, will come on this Forum and see this, and message him "Hey, I bought this Jeep." and he can then come and call the local police to have it impounded as stolen.

I can't see that happening. You know that person would want whatever they paid for the Jeep back. It's a losing situation all around. This is why I hide my Jeep title from my wife.

 

[GregBelleville]

The way your reply was typed, I can't tell if you're being defensive or just filling in blanks, but everything you said is in agreement with what I said. With the exception of that last sentence. What I meant by

"Even if charges are brought against the family, that alone doesn't make OP whole."

Is that you can't get blood from a turnip. Just because they are convicted and/or a judge orders them to pay restitution/damages, doesn't mean you'll get your money. I hope for your sake that you do. Due to my job of over 20 years, I'm extremely familiar with the legal process and have experience in situations like this, so I know the challenges and uphill battle you likely have ahead of you. I hope you get some good news soon.

I believe the legal term is judgment proof, unfortunately a lot of criminals have no assets to sue for, that's why they're criminals.

 

[CreepinDeth]

So this is the Wisconsin DOT web page. Seems similar to TX, how did you get a title that you said had "AND" without getting the Deceased's Legal Representative, his Heirs, to sign? I wish you luck, but if I was out $8k for a Jeep I bought, and this is the question I'd be asking if this mess hit my newly acquired Jeep.

https://wisconsindot.gov/pages/dmv/vehicles/title-plates/surviving.aspx

• If the title lists you “and” the deceased, the surviving co-owner and the deceased’s legal representative must sign the title as the seller. If you are both the co-owner and the deceased’s legal representative you should sign the title twice as the seller.

Pretty much what I was eluding to
There it is in black n white

Nice job posting the verifiable info

 

[DeltaNu1142]

It's a losing situation all around.

I dunno… the people that sold the Jeep seem to have made out alright.

There’s gotta a lesson here on the buyer’s end… beware of sketchy sellers. If OP gets his way—and he should, if his account is correct—then someone that forked over a bunch of money for a Jeep is going to have their vehicle taken away.

I don’t know how the buyer could have sussed out an invalid title, but it’d be good to know how to avoid this. Like I posted earlier… I started negotiating on a TJ last October, and then the seller passed away. I put a deposit down pending a title & settling ownership issues. I’ve been keeping in touch with the family since then, and they were only able to get a title issued last week. I pick up next week. Everything seems legit… but how can one be sure, I wonder…

 

[Mr. Bills]

All of my info has been provided by the Sherriff's department, legal advice.

Law enforcement officers are not attorneys and are not qualified to offer legal advice. Betting that a prosecutor will invest manpower and precious resources in a small potatoes case like this with a non-Floridian as the alleged victim is a fool's wager.

If you really believe that you are in the right, you should seek the advice of an attorney licensed to practice in Florida where the wrongful acts allegedly occurred and where the jeep was located at the time of those acts.

According to Kelly Blue Book, the jeep has a trade-in value of $3,000-4,000 and a private party value of no more than $5,000. Probably less because the jeep is reported to have had an odometer reading of 173,750 miles in October 2019 (almost 5 years ago), the jeep has a history of being sold at a Copart auction at least once, and it appears that the jeep spent one or more winters in Massachusetts where roads may have been salted. [Google is your friend.]

Your legal fees could easily exceed the reasonable fair market value of the jeep. (No attorney I know would take on a case like this for less than a $5,000 advance retainer.)

You should also be aware that Florida adheres to what is sometimes called the "American Rule" with respect to attorney's fees, which means that each party bears his or her own attorney's fees and costs regardless of the outcome unless there is a specific statute allowing recovery or a contract between the parties providing that the loser pays.

How are you going to feel if a judge doesn't agree with your position and finds that you owned no more than a 50% undivided interest in a $3,000 jeep? What if a judge finds that the buyers were "bona fide purchasers" under Florida law? Are you prepared to throw more money at this problem with no guarantee that you will obtain a judgment in excess of what you will spend, or any recovery at all?

You really need to answer these questions for yourself before you proceed further.


Sometimes life isn't fair. This appears to be one of those times.
As Kenny Rogers sang, "Know when to hold 'em and know when to fold 'em."

___________________________________________

https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/bona_fide_purchaser "A bona fide purchaser is someone who exchanges value for property without any reason to suspect irregularities in the transaction. . . . [A] a bona fide purchaser who buys from a seller with a defect of title (whether that’s by fraud or mistake) is nonetheless able to keep the property if a third-party files a claim of ownership."

 

[egclassic]

what scares me is the states that allow a lost title scheme.

have a car sitting for too long and some one puts in a lost title on it. after six months the state issues them the title.

then the go grab the car off the property and they are the new owners.

Kind of like the bullshit squatters rights!

 

[Eamethyst]

Oh, got it. I'm sure younger Gen's would call it some sort of disorder....but I just can't read 50 lines with zero breaks, so I probably missed that detail.

Kind of strange to work with a joint owner to get HIS name taken off of the Jeep....but then he keeps the Jeep? Whatever, this is why you don't buy stuff with other people I guess.

No. That's not what I said. We never worked together. We were friends. Friends buy things all of the time together. They co-owner vehicles, properties, businesses. His family did not find the title. They took the title that is invalid. A title is invalid when it is replaced by a current title. Also by forged signature. Law enforcement is involved. They are the ones who told me to remove his name from the title after he passed away. Law enforcement has informed the people who took the invalid and forged the signatures to the title that they can be charged with forgery and theft. They do not have any legal right to my vehicle.

Oh, got it. I'm sure younger Gen's would call it some sort of disorder....but I just can't read 50 lines with zero breaks, so I probably missed that detail.

Kind of strange to work with a joint owner to get HIS name taken off of the Jeep....but then he keeps the Jeep?

 

[cpwolf]

No. That's not what I said. We never worked together. We were friends. Friends buy things all of the time together. They co-owner vehicles, properties, businesses. His family did not find the title. They took the title that is invalid. A title is invalid when it is replaced by a current title. Also by forged signature. Law enforcement is involved. They are the ones who told me to remove his name from the title after he passed away. Law enforcement has informed the people who took the invalid and forged the signatures to the title that they can be charged with forgery and theft. They do not have any legal right to my vehicle.

Never said you "worked" with him like at a company or job.

It was stated you "worked" with him to have his name removed, that must be inaccurate, since you stated here that his family asked you to remove his name. Not sure why anyone would do that if they are the heirs and he co owned it, but whatever.

I wish you luck, your messages are confusing and I'm sure you've got it. You might have better luck not telling the whole ugly story, and just showing a Picture of the Jeep, and saying "If you bought this in Florida, it may be stolen, can you reach out."

 

[Eamethyst]

Kind of like the bullshit squatters rights!

I think they are hoping that the person that bought the Jeep, will come on this Forum and see this, and message him "Hey, I bought this Jeep." and he can then come and call the local police to have it impounded as stolen.

I am trying to do the right thing by giving the person who bought my jeep a heads up. They have every right to know. I have questions about the sale. Since who sold my jeep is lying to myself and law enforcement.

 

[Mr. Bills]

No. That's not what I said. We never worked together. We were friends. Friends buy things all of the time together. They co-owner vehicles, properties, businesses. His family did not find the title. They took the title that is invalid. A title is invalid when it is replaced by a current title. Also by forged signature. Law enforcement is involved. They are the ones who told me to remove his name from the title after he passed away. Law enforcement has informed the people who took the invalid and forged the signatures to the title that they can be charged with forgery and theft. They do not have any legal right to my vehicle.

Again, legal conclusions you are not qualified to render based upon hearsay, supposition and incomplete facts.

If you had a case you would be speaking to your attorney or the District Attorney, not whining to us on the Internet.

BTW, is the deceased your former lover?

 

[tworley]

There’s gotta a lesson here …

The lesson has already been posted.

this is why you don't buy stuff with other people.

 

[CreepinDeth]

BTW, is the deceased your former lover?

 

[Eamethyst]

Never said you "worked" with him like at a company or job.

It was stated you "worked" with him to have his name removed, that must be inaccurate, since you stated here that his family asked you to remove his name. Not sure why anyone would do that if they are the heirs and he co owned it, but whatever.

I wish you luck, your messages are confusing and I'm sure you've got it. You might have better luck not telling the whole ugly story, and just showing a Picture of the Jeep, and saying "If you bought this in Florida, it may be stolen, can you reach out."

Never said you "worked" with him like at a company or job.

It was stated you "worked" with him to have his name removed, that must be inaccurate, since you stated here that his family asked you to remove his name. Not sure why anyone would do that if they are the heirs and he co owned it, but whatever.

I wish you luck, your messages are confusing and I'm sure you've got it. You might have better luck not telling the whole ugly story, and just showing a Picture of the Jeep, and saying "If you bought this in Florida, it may be stolen, can you reach out."

I said law enforcement is involved. They( law enforcement not family( are the ones who told me to remove his name. He is deceased. Why keep someone on something that is deceased. Not maybe stolen. It is stolen. Who ever bought my jeep isn't at fault. They have every right to know the situation.
I already did something similar to what you said. People aren't willing to give info without infor.

 

[Zorba]

This thread has become tiresome. Why does the OP continue to whine about this on the Internet. I never - and I mean NEVER - discuss personal/family business on the Internet. I think anyone here who might have had knowledge of this Jeep's supposed sale has been alerted to this situation.

I'm out.

 

[DeltaNu1142]

The lesson has already been posted.

Oh, that? Yeah, I don't need that lesson. I don't cosign sheeeeeet. I'm talking about the one on the other end of the transaction.

You go and check out a Jeep, good price, listen to the sob story about how the owner passed away and they're just trying to pay for his services, his lifelong dream of having his intact remains shot out of a cannon over the Grand Canyon ain't cheap, ya know, and by the way here's the title, nevermind this other guy listed here, he's uh, dead too, yeah that's it, dead, so it's just $5000 cash only and you can drive this baby home...

...or was it that sketchy, at all? I dunno... I guess the buyer could have gotten IDs for all of the people on the title and not bought without seeing them. For example, I know when I pick up my Jeep next week, I'm getting a Certificate of Appointment for the estate, the title in the name of the deceased, a bill of sale, and I already have the drivers' license for the estate's legal representative... and I just realized it's probably a good idea to call my state to confirm what I'll need to transfer title.

EDIT: Alright, my state wants to see:

1. Title
2. Certificate of Appointment (of estate)
3. Death Certificate
4. Bill of Sale

So, here's the lesson (at least in my state): don't buy a dead guy's vehicle unless you have those things, with some valid ID.

 

[Mr. Bills]

BTW, is the deceased your former lover?

View attachment 525775

@Weasellee and @Apparition :

@John Cooper:

You guys seem shocked, but it is a legitimate question that can be answered with a simple yes or no.

Any good investigator would attempt to fill the holes in OP's story and would want to know the nature of the relationships between the various parties. The answer to this question might shed some light upon the emotional aspects of @Eamethyst's posts and the apparent animosity between OP and the deceased's family that seems a bit out of proportion. The answer is also relevant to whether this is a criminal or civil matter.