Mopar thermostat alignment for weep hole

B1Toad said:
With the Torque Pro app that Actormike is using you can have analog, digital, needles, bars, or a combination of the above. This is what I use on my Sprinter and it is mounted in such a way that I only need to shift my eye to see it instead of peering down under the steering wheel which for me makes curvy mountain roads easier and safer. (There are a few things on a Sprinter to know about if you want to maximize engine, oil and exhaust system life).

I used a smaller version on the TJ and saw temps that the dash gauge just didn't accurately reflect. I don't use it all the time but it was handy to know, in an accurate way, what the dash gauge was saying. In some vehicles the temp gauge is stepped and doesn't move until a certain threshold is reached so you have no way to know if it is on the way up or not so you can take action early.

Then there is the scan tool capability that you always have with you in your phone for reading codes, freeze frame data and live data for things like fuel trim and O2 sensor data.

Besides that, I am a genuine nerd when it comes to this stuff and I ask you guys who disagree why can't we just have our fun? ;)

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It's good some apps have introduced analog displays, I haven't seen them in a while. When I saw the displays in earlier apps the screen was just full of numbers.
 
1904-06LJR said:
https://wranglertjforum.com/threads/radiator-replacement.22899/page-2

Post #34
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LOL. Here let me post that:

"Straight up."

I found a photo of mine. I recall drilling the hole, I have a photo of the thermostat without a hole.
IMG_7876.JPG
 
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B1Toad said:
With the Torque Pro app that Actormike is using you can have analog, digital, needles, bars, or a combination of the above. This is what I use on my Sprinter and it is mounted in such a way that I only need to shift my eye to see it instead of peering down under the steering wheel which for me makes curvy mountain roads easier and safer. (There are a few things on a Sprinter to know about if you want to maximize engine, oil and exhaust system life).

I used a smaller version on the TJ and saw temps that the dash gauge just didn't accurately reflect. I don't use it all the time but it was handy to know, in an accurate way, what the dash gauge was saying. In some vehicles the temp gauge is stepped and doesn't move until a certain threshold is reached so you have no way to know if it is on the way up or not so you can take action early.

Then there is the scan tool capability that you always have with you in your phone for reading codes, freeze frame data and live data for things like fuel trim and O2 sensor data.

Besides that, I am a genuine nerd when it comes to this stuff and I ask you guys who disagree why can't we just have our fun? ;)

View attachment 424256
Click to expand...

I didn't go out and connect it to get data for a live screenshot, but this is my main layout. I set up the ECT meter so it somewhat matches the factory gauge in that 210 is straight up and 260 is maxed out.

Screenshot_20230512-210444~2.png


But seeing them side by side in action
really highlights how non-linear the factory gauge is. 235 should be halfway between 210 and 260, but the cluster puts it over the zero in 210 (Photo of 235 on my 99), which if assumed linear most would read as about 220.

20180628_172302.jpg


I consider that a big discrepancy, considering that extra 15 degrees makes the difference between whether it boils at atmospheric pressure (such as when it's released into the reservoir or a hose breaks, or a leaky radiator cap).
 
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My apologies to @Actormike for my comment. I meant no harm. Members here know me as a nice, polite and sensitive guy, who always puts other's feelings above my own. :unsure:

p.s. I believe my account may have been hacked by one of those Extreme Ultra MAGA people I keep hearing about.
 
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freedom_in_4low said:
Genuinely interested in this - given only the gauge, what is your criteria for determining something is "wrong" in the cooling system, in terms of the extents in either direction from the middle that the needle needs to reach in prescribed conditions to indicate malfunction? To your point, most people would see 230 on a scanner and dozens of forum posts claiming a healthy cooling system should stay close to 210 in the worst of conditions, and be concerned in spite of the completely nonlinear gauge putting that on the 0 in 210, barely past the middle. Likewise, the 192 reported by the OP is barely left of the middle and even without a scanner I would have no reason to suspect a latched failsafe or incorrect thermostat.
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The gauge is dead simple. Yes, it is non linear by design and rightfully so. Straight up or a needle width either side of 210 says the system is fine and nothing to worry about for the 97-04. In 05-06 it tends to live 1 or 2 needle widths to the right of 210 when worked hard. Any more than that for both and it will just jump to the red zone with the Check Gauges warning.

Ya'll need to hop in the PCM and remove the buffering on the fuel gauge so you can watch the needle bounce around when the fuel sloshes around in the tank.

Your 230 point is why we don't need to know what it is doing. That number is very commonly read by a scanner. It is also well within the parameters for a solid working cooling system and no cause for concern whatsoever. Yet, if the gauge showed that, all we'd be doing on the forums is trying to calm folks down over a normal number.

I actually run into this every time I install a trans temp gauge. The owners always ask the same question. What temp is too high?
 
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mrblaine said:
The gauge is dead simple. Yes, it is non linear by design and rightfully so. Straight up or a needle width either side of 210 says the system is fine and nothing to worry about for the 97-04. In 05-06 it tends to live 1 or 2 needle widths to the right of 210 when worked hard. Any more than that for both and it will just jump to the red zone with the Check Gauges warning.

Ya'll need to hop in the PCM and remove the buffering on the fuel gauge so you can watch the needle bounce around when the fuel sloshes around in the tank.

Your 230 point is why we don't need to know what it is doing. That number is very commonly read by a scanner. It is also well within the parameters for a solid working cooling system and no cause for concern whatsoever. Yet, if the gauge showed that, all we'd be doing on the forums is trying to calm folks down over a normal number.

I actually run into this every time I install a trans temp gauge. The owners always ask the same question. What temp is too high?
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Thank you. That's immensely helpful. A lot of us more techy folk read that it shouldn't ever be past 210 and we take it literally.
 
mrblaine said:
Did you not ever ponder why they have the system operating at 18 psi?
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It bumps the boiling point of 50/50 antifreeze/water from 223 to about 270. (Which also means that if ect is 223 and rising, you will see boiling in your reservoir as the coolant vented by the cap will flash boil once exposed to atmospheric pressure, this is the most dangerous possible situation to remove the radiator cap)

A great deal of my concern stems from knowing enough to know how much I don't know. I live every day in the heat transfer world so I can't help but look at it with the same attention to detail, the difference being that I wasn't in the room for designing the TJ (or any other automotive) cooling system so I can only be aware that the details exist but don't have the resources to know them.

-I know what temperature is coming out of the thermostat housing but I don't know how evenly distributed the flow through the water jacket is...I know the ECT is the mixed result from various warmer and cooler locations. I don't know how much difference there is between those which means I don't know how much below 270 the ECT has to be to guarantee those warmer spots aren't getting there.
- I know the big bad result of running too hot is usually cracked blocks, heads, or heads warped enough to break the head gasket seal. I don't know what ECT it takes to make that happen, whether it's as simple as being good as long as it never boils, or is there a point without boiling that stresses due to thermal expansion become too great? is it a one time and you're done thing or can extended periods of a less scary temperature be cumulative until it finally fails?

all of these things are information that the engineering team determined through analysis and confirmed via testing, or it's established knowledge among those doing that work, but it's not exactly the kind of stuff to publish in a manual.
 
Actormike said:
Information is always a good thing. Being able to effortlessly connect to the sensor and watch on my phone while I was warming up and driving how quickly the temperature rose or how it reacted while driving, stopping etc is certainly not a bad thing! You cannot see the temperature fluctuations by watching the analog gauge on the cluster.

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Too much information can be a bad thing sometimes. I was in the automotive industry for years. Major customer problems with oil pressure gauges that fluctuate. Fuel gauges in general, customers think 1/2 tank should actually be half the gas in the tank. Gas mileage and distance to empty readings. The worst was when the factory TSB’s became available on line when had keyboard warriors come in with everyone printed out. They wanted all this work done even if it wasn’t needed.
 
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NskLJ said:
Ford would turn the electric cooling fans on at 221 degrees.
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My MINI had an electronic thermostat that would run it at 230. I think in general more late model engines are running higher temps. Probably somehow better for emissions, doubt it's better for longevity.

Also, inline 6s seem to be more prone to the cracks and head gasket failures vs other configurations, so I'm not sure I would assume a temperature that's safe for a V8, v6, or I4 would also be safe for an I6. The same thermal expansion gets bigger when its accumulated over a head that's 6 cylinders long instead of 3-4.
 
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freedom_in_4low said:
My MINI had an electronic thermostat that would run it at 230. I think in general more late model engines are running higher temps. Probably somehow better for emissions, doubt it's better for longevity.

Also, inline 6s seem to be more prone to the cracks and head gasket failures vs other configurations, so I'm not sure I would assume a temperature that's safe for a V8, v6, or I4 would also be safe for an I6. The same thermal expansion gets bigger when its accumulated over a head that's 6 cylinders long instead of 3-4.
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Ya'll sure worry a whole bunch about shit that just really doesn't matter. You can't out-engineer the folks that designed the cooling system. In stock form it has at least twice as much capacity as the engine actually needs, it is very good at what it is supposed to do.
 
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mrblaine said:
Ya'll sure worry a whole bunch about shit that just really doesn't matter. You can't out-engineer the folks that designed the cooling system. In stock form it has at least twice as much capacity as the engine actually needs, it is very good at what it is supposed to do.
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I'm definitely NOT (edited for omission) trying to out engineer them or have any illusions that I'm going to improve on what they did, I just want to make sure what I have is operating as they intended it. I do apply some skepticism to gauge readings when I know they've been manipulated to reduce dealer warranty calls and it's guaranteed that a compromise was made in a boardroom when they decided how much to compress the reading into that central quarter inch of temperature gauge and at what temperature it should jump to the red.

In 2018 I replaced an aftermarket radiator because I hit 235 on the interstate (via scanner with needle covering right side of the zero). With the Mopar radiator the only time it ever even thought about crossing 210 (via scanner) was when I went from working it hard on the highway to a sudden stop and extended idle in traffic and it got to 215-217. That "experience" reinforced the idea that below 210 (the actual number, not the vague area on a gauge) was etched in stone and exceeding it with any regularity means something is wrong. Now I have an LJ with a mopar radiator that reaches close to 230, almost to the same range that the TJ did with the aftermarket radiator in similar conditions. It's only a needle-width or two past the 210 hash mark, so if I brought my LJ to you and said I think it's running warm, would you look into it or send me on my way and tell me to save my money for something else?
 
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freedom_in_4low said:
I'm definitely trying to out engineer them or have any illusions that I'm going to improve on what they did, I just want to make sure what I have is operating as they intended it. I do apply some skepticism to gauge readings when I know they've been manipulated to reduce dealer warranty calls and it's guaranteed that a compromise was made in a boardroom when they decided how much to compress the reading into that central quarter inch of temperature gauge and at what temperature it should jump to the red.

In 2018 I replaced an aftermarket radiator because I hit 235 on the interstate (via scanner with needle covering right side of the zero). With the Mopar radiator the only time it ever even thought about crossing 210 (via scanner) was when I went from working it hard on the highway to a sudden stop and extended idle in traffic and it got to 215-217. That "experience" reinforced the idea that below 210 (the actual number, not the vague area on a gauge) was etched in stone and exceeding it with any regularity means something is wrong. Now I have an LJ with a mopar radiator that reaches close to 230, almost to the same range that the TJ did with the aftermarket radiator in similar conditions. It's only a needle-width or two past the 210 hash mark, so if I brought my LJ to you and said I think it's running warm, would you look into it or send me on my way and tell me to save my money for something else?
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After this conversation, you don't have enough money for me to even look at it.
 
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