Outboard rear shocks project

[Igoo65]

I was just curious. I have heard from several people how great the RS5000x shocks are and when Gorilla said they wouldn't work, I was just curious. I would like to do this modification, but that is down the road! I'm glad to see you're back on the forum!

 

[jjvw]

The 5000x's are a great value and they get the job done well. I don't want to discount that. But now that I have a glimpse of what good shocks can be, I would be hesitant to put the effort of an outboard into them. There are little things you can do to add some length to the stock mounts that are less involved.

The goal of the outboard is to create a better environment to allow a high performance shock to function within. The act of carving out that space is only part of the process.

 

[pcoplin]

The 5000x's are a great value and they get the job done well. I don't want to discount that. But now that I have a glimpse of what good shocks can be, I would be hesitant to put the effort of an outboard into them. There are little things you can do to add some length to the stock mounts that are less involved.

The goal of the outboard is to create a better environment to allow a high performance shock to function within. The act of carving out that space is only part of the process.

Totally agree. The Ranchos are a great value for sure. I have them on my F350, they rode well unloaded. But they are entry level, about the cheapest on the market actually.

I wouldn't however, bother outboarding with any entry level shock. The lengths are quite a bit different, and you would have to rework the towers or lower mounts to upgrade later.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk

 

[Gorilla]

Thanks guys.

Why won't the RS5000x shocks work on an outboard set up?

why use a low end shock?

I wasnt sure if the top end of he rear shock could be changed from accepting 2 separate bolts for mounting them. I didnt see anything listed about it and only saw longer shocks used. I wasnt aware of other type of shocks being able to work.
I have no complaints on using something better but just reading reviews from the searches I've been doing and wasnt sure how the Ranchos compared to FOX shocks.
For a OME 2" set up does anyone know off hand what the FOX part numbers are for the front and rear? I would assume you would want a matching set of shocks for the front and rear, correct?

There are little things you can do to add some length to the stock mounts that are less involved.

The goal of the outboard is to create a better environment to allow a high performance shock to function within. The act of carving out that space is only part of the process.

Do you know any links off hand on this? Never came across it.
So outboarding the rear, is there a greater ride comfort or stability for onroad? I mainly was thinking it would provide better control over the jeep from bouncing side to side when you hit bumps & such on the roadways. You know those bumpers that throw you left and right, the ones that make you feel like your dancing in your seat of the jeep that a regular vehicle wouldnt make you feel as much.
I wheel occasionally but more-so during the summer months as winters are harsh here. Im more of a onroad experience being its a daily driver.

 

[BuildBreakRepeat]

I wasnt sure if the top end of he rear shock could be changed from accepting 2 separate bolts for mounting them. I didnt see anything listed about it and only saw longer shocks used. I wasnt aware of other type of shocks being able to work.
I have no complaints on using something better but just reading reviews from the searches I've been doing and wasnt sure how the Ranchos compared to FOX shocks.
For a OME 2" set up does anyone know off hand what the FOX part numbers are for the front and rear? I would assume you would want a matching set of shocks for the front and rear, correct?

Outboarding allows for a better length shock to maximize the amount of usable travel. This removes the shock as a limiting factor for travel. If you have a 2” lift, you’ll benefit from an increase in down travel by outboarding, not sure if any uptravel gains are to be had by this. In outboarding for a 4” lift, a 12” fox shock can be used, and when used with a resivor provides a significant improvement in ride and capability as these shocks can be tuned and valves by someone such as @pcoplin. Tuning gives you the ability to adjust the ride stiffness, rebound, and compression. For 2” of life I wouldn’t consider outboarding to be worth the cost/effort for the amount of work and money it takes to done right...can you do it? Sure. But to do it right would mean much more work than just placing a tower and a longer shock. You can probably get all the usable travel from a 2” lift with an over the counter Rancho, adjustable ones being my personal favorite as I have ran them on many things. But there’s another level when you go high and need more adjustable parameters. I’ll let some others chime in, just know that @mrblaine invented shock outboarding for TJs, so if he decides to give input here or you read what he’s said on other threads he’s going to be the correct voice. What I will say is that outboarding is a solution to a problem, and if you’re not having a problem then there isn’t anything to be gained. The question to ask is what am I trying to achieve with this modification? Stability and ride can be improved with outboarding but only when done correctly and with that goal in mind when setting it up. As @mrblaine has said on other threads discussing this, you can outboard and severely downgrade the shocks performance if not set up right, it all comes down to your goals and what problems you are trying to solve! Hope this helps.

 

[Gorilla]

when Gorilla said they wouldn't work

No,no I was just asking if they would work. I wasnt sure if they would or not with the 2 separate bolt top end set up of the rear shock. I was curious to see if they would. I assume the top can be changed over to a one bolt slide thru set up?

Outboarding allows for a better length shock to maximize the amount of usable travel. This removes the shock as a limiting factor for travel. If you have a 2” lift, you’ll benefit from an increase in down travel by outboarding, not sure if any uptravel gains are to be had by this. In outboarding for a 4” lift, a 12” fox shock can be used, and when used with a resivor provides a significant improvement in ride and capability as these shocks can be tuned and valves by someone such as @pcoplin. Tuning gives you the ability to adjust the ride stiffness, rebound, and compression. For 2” of life I wouldn’t consider outboarding to be worth the cost/effort for the amount of work and money it takes to done right...can you do it? Sure. But to do it right would mean much more work than just placing a tower and a longer shock. You can probably get all the usable travel from a 2” lift with an over the counter Rancho, adjustable ones being my personal favorite as I have ran them on many things. But there’s another level when you go high and need more adjustable parameters. I’ll let some others chime in, just know that @mrblaine invented shock outboarding for TJs, so if he decides to give input here or you read what he’s said on other threads he’s going to be the correct voice. What I will say is that outboarding is a solution to a problem, and if you’re not having a problem then there isn’t anything to be gained. The question to ask is what am I trying to achieve with this modification? Stability and ride can be improved with outboarding but only when done correctly and with that goal in mind when setting it up. As @mrblaine has said on other threads discussing this, you can outboard and severely downgrade the shocks performance if not set up right, it all comes down to your goals and what problems you are trying to solve! Hope this helps.

Thank you for this explanation. It helps a bit. It sounds like for a minimal lift as I have and for more onroad use then I wont be really taking full advantage of outboarding the rear shocks. Please correct me if I'm wrong. I wanted to seek answers to this before buying the Ranchos or any other shock/shock setup. Greatly appreciated.

 

[BuildBreakRepeat]

No,no I was just asking if they would work. I wasnt sure if they would or not with the 2 separate bolt top end set up of the rear shock. I was curious to see if they would. I assume the top can be changed over to a one bolt slide thru set up?

Yes it can be changed but some travel will most likely be lost, also if you can’t find a bracket you might have to make it yourself!

 

[jjvw]

Outboarding allows for a better length shock to maximize the amount of usable travel. This removes the shock as a limiting factor for travel. If you have a 2” lift, you’ll benefit from an increase in down travel by outboarding, not sure if any uptravel gains are to be had by this.
....

On the rear, bump stop extension is immediately required for longer than stock length shocks before anything else requires it. So, moving the shock mounts could offer an immediate improvement by shifting the bump stop requirement to the next interference that isn't a compressed shock.

For some contrast and comparison, the front immediately requires bump stop extension for a tire size larger than stock under an otherwise stock body. This required bump stop extension, in and of itself, automatically begins to create room for a longer than stock front shock.

If one understands bump stop extensions and how to determine their length, then it is much easier to grasp why shock mounts might need to be relocated.

 

[BuildBreakRepeat]

On the rear, bump stop extension is immediately required for longer than stock length shocks before anything else requires it. So, moving the shock mounts could offer an immediate improvement by shifting the bump stop requirement to the next interference that isn't a compressed shock.

For some contrast and comparison, the front immediately requires bump stop extension for a tire size larger than stock under an otherwise stock body. This required bump stop extension, in and of itself, automatically begins to create room for a longer than stock front shock.

If you understand bump stop extensions and how to determine their length, then it is much easier to grasp why shock mounts might need to be relocated.

Agreed, I define “usable travel” as travel when bumpstopping is done correctly - which should be the improvement seen if the shocks are the reason for a bump stop extension and not from tire size or geometry issues/clearance with brackets and arms.

 

[Gollywomper]

JJVW talked about “rolling off of the bump stop on to the shock”. How much shock travel does this actually save? Lots of variables to answer that I’m sure. As I walk myself through the process again, I did it before on a linked samurai I built, that was the hardest part. Determining optimum shock mounting while considering full bump as well as fully articulated. All while trying to get as close to 100% of shock usage as you can.

 

[mrblaine]

JJVW talked about “rolling off of the bump stop on to the shock”. How much shock travel does this actually save? Lots of variables to answer that I’m sure. As I walk myself through the process again, I did it before on a linked samurai I built, that was the hardest part. Determining optimum shock mounting while considering full bump as well as fully articulated. All while trying to get as close to 100% of shock usage as you can.

No way to know the answer without knowing the relationship between the two pivot points. If the shock is directly behind the bump stop, they will both hit under articulation, bump stop first, then it compresses and the shock is the final hard stop.

If the shock is outboard of the stop, then it hits first and the bump stops either don't touch or don't contact hard enough to matter. That is fairly typical for an outboard set up.

That bothers folks since they believe the shock should not be the limit. It would however, be very unusual to hit the shock with any high level of force under full articulation and if you do, there are other things to worry about.

Typical TJ set up has the bump stops doing some work until the shock bottoms out under full stuff. The bump stops don't do much at all under articulation.

 

[Gollywomper]

Something close to 1/4” of travel left on the shock at full bump. Then letting the axle roll onto the shock under articulation? Granted that will depend on mounting position as far as exact amount. Or do you set at shock at 100% collapsed at full bump then let it roll onto the shock?
I’m probably just way overthinking it.

 

[jjvw]

The amount of shaft left exposed at full hard bump is going to be informed by where you want things to land at full flex. Less than an inch is probably accurate. This is going to change depending where and how the pivot point of the bump stops and the pivot point of the compressed shock relate to each other.

It's easier to see and understand when you are cycling the axle. Just be aware that it is there and needs to be considered when locating the mounts.

 

[BuildBreakRepeat]

The amount of shaft left exposed at full hard bump is going to be informed by where you want things to land at full flex. Less than an inch is probably accurate. This is going to change depending where and how the pivot point of the bump stops and the pivot point of the compressed shock relate to each other.

It's easier to see and understand when you are cycling the axle. Just be aware that it is there and needs to be considered when locating the mounts.

Just to clarify that’s because of how the bumstop contact surface changes depending on the cycle? Like straight up vs tucked on one side?

 

[Gollywomper]

The amount of shaft left exposed at full hard bump is going to be informed by where you want things to land at full flex. Less than an inch is probably accurate. This is going to change depending where and how the pivot point of the bump stops and the pivot point of the compressed shock relate to each other.

It's easier to see and understand when you are cycling the axle. Just be aware that it is there and needs to be considered when locating the mounts.

Absolutely, I am overthinking and looking for answers that can’t be made without mocking everything up and cycling the axle.

 

[Gollywomper]

Just to clarify that’s because of how the bumstop contact surface changes depending on the cycle? Like straight up vs tucked on one side?

Yes if the lower shock mount is outside of the bump/spring perch center on the axle then the shock length will be less when articulated than at full bump.

 

[mrblaine]

Something close to 1/4” of travel left on the shock at full bump. Then letting the axle roll onto the shock under articulation? Granted that will depend on mounting position as far as exact amount. Or do you set at shock at 100% collapsed at full bump then let it roll onto the shock?
I’m probably just way overthinking it.

Need to define full bump. Full bump is when the shock is fully compressed at full stuff and there is no more up travel left. I don't pull the bump stops into the equation because I don't use a hard bump stop like the factory has. I use the Currie if and when I use bump stops and they can compress further with a harder hit. We dial in about 3/4" of compression before the shock bottoms out.

We don't let the bump stops or the shock determine up travel generally. That is determined by the interference with the axle and what ever it will run into. We stop it short of damaging stuff as the upper limit and evaluate from there.

 

[jjvw]

Absolutely, I am overthinking and looking for answers that can’t be made without mocking everything up and cycling the axle.

This is where these types of projects get complicated very quickly. You have to be able to follow and interpret the movements so that you can make the necessary changes to put things where they need to be.

I've done this twice. I think I have a good grasp of the movements to catch most of what is happening. I guarantee that Blaine is a dozen steps further along in getting the details refined and squeezing out the last bits of performance.

 

[mrblaine]

Just to clarify that’s because of how the bumstop contact surface changes depending on the cycle? Like straight up vs tucked on one side?

No, it is the relationship on one plane, the axle. If the two are directly in line with each other, they travel the same. If one is outboard, it will travel further under articulation and rise higher and move lower. Also why shock travel is not the same as wheel travel. Wheel travels further than the shock stroke. The wheel will be lower at full bump than full articulation.

 

[jjvw]

...

We don't let the bump stops or the shock determine up travel generally. That is determined by the interference with the axle and what ever it will run into. We stop it short of damaging stuff as the upper limit and evaluate from there.

These are the really neat things that are possible when you really understand what is happening.