Possible starter issue?

[Pony]

Hey all

So this morning I woke up to a dead Jeep. I turn the key and nothing happens, no cranking or any other sounds, and no lights on the dashboard except for a barely lit brake light. I hooked up the battery tester and it reads 12.6, which I believe is good. However, the headlights do not come on, and when the headlight switch is pulled halfway I hear a single beep (which I'd never heard before, but it sounds like the engine off/headlights on warning in other vehicles, which I hadn't been getting when I turn off the Jeep before turning off the lights), and when I pull it all the way the dimly lit brake light on the dashboard goes away. Had no problems yesterday, though the past month or so I have noticed that the engine was having slight difficulty in starting (but would still always start on the first key turn). Hoping it's the starter, but if the battery is still good shouldn't other electrical components be operational?

2000 TJ 4.0 manual

 

[Steel City 06]

That is odd. Have you tried jumping it at all? It's possible the battery reads normal voltage with zero load, but it's internally damaged and simply can't sustain any significant current. This can happen if the lead plates break up or if the terminal gets snapped off in the battery internally.

 

[Pony]

That is odd. Have you tried jumping it at all? It's possible the battery reads normal voltage with zero load, but it's internally damaged and simply can't sustain any significant current. This can happen if the lead plates break up or if the terminal gets snapped off in the battery internally.

Jumping was the first thing I tried

 

[Steel City 06]

Actually another possible issue is a bad terminal or connection somewhere. Over time, things will corrode and create significant resistance.

I would take apart the battery terminals and clean each and every mating surface with steel wool or emery cloth. Make the ring terminals, the clamps, and the battery posts shiny clean, on both sides. If you have any battery acid, a paste of baking soda and water will get rid of it.

Also clean any major connections or grounds, especially the body/frame ground and the engine ground. If either of those are bad you will have issues.

That would explain the good voltage, the slow starting, the weirdness of the electronics.

It may also explain why jumping isn't working. You need a complete circuit from the battery terminals to the starter, and if there is a corroded ground or positive wire somewhere, the power from the jumper cables will never make it to the starter or in to the other electronics.

When starters go, they generally don't just get weak. They typically just don't start every now and then. It's essentially a 3-phase electric motor with an internal commutator. Sometimes you might land on the bad phase and have no start, but other times you land on one of the good phases and get a mostly normal start.

 

[Pony]

Update: So I cleaned the battery terminals and any major grounds I could find. After doing this I've been able to get my dashlights to come on and not go dead completely afterwards. I get a click from the starter but no crank. I then took out the starter, went down to autozone to have it tested. The starter wouldnt engage at all when they hooked it up, so I got a new starter. After hooking the new one in when I try crank the engine I still only get a click and now a buzzing sound.

The battery is fully charged (according to my tester, anyway), only a few months old, and I get very little voltage drop when I turn the key. However, the headlights go out while I'm trying to crank

 

[Steel City 06]

Can you turn the engine over by hand? With the car in park (neutral for manuals) and no key in the ignition, take a breaker bar and 3/4 socket, crawl in front of the car, put it on the big nut in the center of the harmonic balancer, and try to turn the engine clockwise. It generally takes quite a bit of force but the engine should spin. That way you can eliminate the possibility of a seized engine. Try cranking after you turn it maybe 60-90 degrees. (Take the wrench OFF first or you're going to see some serious .) Probably won't make a difference, but if you've chipped some flywheel teeth (unlikely but not impossible) it might actually start.

Next thing I would try would be to manually crank the starter to see if it's an issue with the signal wire. Put the keys in the Run position, shifter in Park (Neutral for manuals - absolutely verify this or you could be injured or even killed if the jeep moves) and yank the parking brake as hard as you can for safety. Crawl under the jeep by the starter, and take a short jumper wire, and jump the 12V battery supply post to the signal wire post until the engine starts or a few seconds of cranking pass. (It may arc when you connect it, so wear gloves and safety glasses.) If the starter works and has proper 12V power and ground, it should crank the engine.

When you replaced the starter, did you clean the terminals that attach to the starter? Those have to be shiny clean as well.

It's also possible some wire somewhere has given up the ghost, and is causing power issues everywhere. I would consider installing new battery wires, especially body ground to battery negative, engine ground to battery negative, positive to PDC, and probably positive/ground to starter. You can do the alternator at the same time if you have time.

 

[Jeffseven777]

HEY HEY. my testers will show a full battery as well but dies asap. The tester isnt a good way to test the battery since it usually only shows you VOLTS not cranking amps. take the battery it self to a place and get it tested they will be able to test the ampage. Also if you can just put a diff battery in there if you have one around the same cranking amps to see if that starts it either way ampage cranks the motor not so much voltage.

 

[Jeffseven777]

or if your multimeter has amps on it that you can measure that high you can test but prob wont.

 

[Pony]

When you replaced the starter, did you clean the terminals that attach to the starter? Those have to be shiny clean as well.

Yeah I did that when I was cleaning the connections
Also to clarify, it’s a rapid clicking that I get when turning the key, not a single click
Will try to test for resistance in the cables tomorrow before springing for a new set

 

[Pony]

or if your multimeter has amps on it that you can measure that high you can test but prob wont.

I’ll try to source a tester that can measure cca, I’m not about to carry that heavy ass battery over to autozone lol

 

[Jeffseven777]

I’ll try to source a tester that can measure cca, I’m not about to carry that heavy ass battery over to autozone lol

well if its bad youll be carrying one atleast to the jeep. Ya idk maybe yours is 700 amps DC. so make sure its a tester that can check that and not like 600ma and u blow the fuse on the tester.

 

[Steel City 06]

or if your multimeter has amps on it that you can measure that high you can test but prob wont.

In-line multimeters generally have a maximum of 12 amps. However a clamp meter generally goes up to 600 amps. Clamp meters are very useful as they can roughly measure current without ever making any wiring connections.

Perhaps a more useful test would be to watch the voltage across the battery terminals as the engine is attempting to crank. If it drops more than a few hundred millivolts, I would be very suspicious of that battery.

 

[Steel City 06]

To the OP, I would recommend trying to jumpstart it off of another running car again now that you have a new starter.

One thing that can happen if the battery is bad is that it doesn’t have the power to turn the starter, but it still sends power into the starter, basically turning it into a heater. If someone attempts to crank it more than a few times of for more than a few seconds at a time, that heat can cook and kill an otherwise good starter.

So it’s possible your battery is in fact bad, but the repeated attempts to start it before attempting to jump it is what cooked your last starter. If the new one is still good, perhaps jumping it from a running car might crank it.

Be careful not to attempt to crank the new starter too much in a short period of time or it might get cooked too.

 

[Jeffseven777]

If your battery is complete dead and like no amps jumping off a running vehicle can still cause it not to start. UNLESS you disconnect the old batter and connect the jumpers direct to the positive and negative wires. A complete dead battery can cause the amps to drop being sent across cause its robbing it of the power.

 

[Pony]

ran a load tester on the battery and it stays in the green zone, got a friend coming by in the morning who knows more about how to do these things than me so hopefully we can get it fully narrowed down

 

[Pony]

To the OP, I would recommend trying to jumpstart it off of another running car again now that you have a new starter.

One thing that can happen if the battery is bad is that it doesn’t have the power to turn the starter, but it still sends power into the starter, basically turning it into a heater. If someone attempts to crank it more than a few times of for more than a few seconds at a time, that heat can cook and kill an otherwise good starter.

So it’s possible your battery is in fact bad, but the repeated attempts to start it before attempting to jump it is what cooked your last starter. If the new one is still good, perhaps jumping it from a running car might crank it.

Be careful not to attempt to crank the new starter too much in a short period of time or it might get cooked too.

I only hold the key for a second or so and I only crank it when I'm testing something so I've been mindful not to overwork the solenoid

 

[Pony]

To the OP, I would recommend trying to jumpstart it off of another running car again now that you have a new starter.

One thing that can happen if the battery is bad is that it doesn’t have the power to turn the starter, but it still sends power into the starter, basically turning it into a heater. If someone attempts to crank it more than a few times of for more than a few seconds at a time, that heat can cook and kill an otherwise good starter.

So it’s possible your battery is in fact bad, but the repeated attempts to start it before attempting to jump it is what cooked your last starter. If the new one is still good, perhaps jumping it from a running car might crank it.

Be careful not to attempt to crank the new starter too much in a short period of time or it might get cooked too.

Would it be a similar situation if there was a grounding/connection issue?

 

[Pony]

So my friend came by yesterday morning to run all the tests he could. Battery was good, managed to get it push started to make sure the engine isnt seized, but we found when trying to jump the starter that the alternator body itself was being energized (so grounding issue it is, then). Ordered a battery cable with lug ends, attached it to the negative terminal and the engine ground, and now I have a starting/running jeep again

f*cking finally, thanks for all the assistance y'all

 

[pagrey]

finally, thanks for all the assistance y'all

Thanks for posting the details, it'll really help others in similar situations.

 

[Jeffseven777]

So just a battery cable?