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Apparition

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People often quote Occam's razor as "the simples solution is often the best," but while a lot of the time that's true, that's actually not correct. The quote actually translates to "entities should not be multiplied beyond necessity," and I think we crossed that bridge a long time ago with guns. I have a bolt-action .308 for hunting, a pump 12ga for birds, a lever action .22 for my nephew, and a handgun for carry. I used to have an H&K .40, but I cut it in half with a grinder in 2018 on principle and bought a revolver. I've inherited guns that I've also destroyed to keep them out of circulation. I can remember in the 90s my Dad turned a bunch of his guns in to the cops to be destroyed and got a load of McDonald's gift cards that we used all year.

I guess what I'm trying to say is, I hate feeling like I'm being sold something, whether its jeep gear, vinyl siding, a new phone, or the latest and greatest space-age ball hugging underwear, and I often feel bad when I see people who fall for marketing wank. And that's what I see with a lot of other gun owners who buy guns basically, as far as I can tell, just to have them. I just don't get why people can't be practical.
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Apparition

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The problem is we don't differentiate between the two except for NFA guns.



The sad part is that the gun lobby and many of the posters in this thread are making sure red flag laws will not pass in most states. I also thought it strange that people on the no fly list were allowed to buy guns. From https://va.org/guns-and-the-no-fly-list/

Back in 2010, the Government Accountability Office (GAO), noticed that there is no prohibition for the people on the ‘no-fly list’ to buy guns and ammunition, and they can easily be given licenses and ammunition through the standard procedure just as an ordinary citizen of the country. From 2004-2010, around 1400 individuals applied for the guns and 1321 succeeded in purchasing the required ammunition which means more than 90% of the people who are barred from taking flights from or in or over the US and are suspected to be a terrorist can buy guns. No law was resisting the members of a terrorist organization to purchase firearms.



Really? Our homicide rate is ok? I work with a guy that has full auto Tommy gun, and a friend with a license to have one. He does have a suppressor for his USP tactical. It is a joy to shoot with little recoil no need for ear protection.

I wonder how many mass shooters would have the balls to go on a shooting spree with out the
Hard to believe in our current situation people still want to eliminate rights.
 
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Rubi04

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The problem is we don't differentiate between the two except for NFA guns.

What are you asking? The FBI tracks crimes and murders involving firearms and the types of firearms. I said responsible gun owners don’t commit crimes with their guns.


What are you saying, you want to see the stats split into....what? Or are you insinuating that gun owners commit crimes when used in self defense? Or am I reading it wrong?
 
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jodomcfrodo

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The problem is we don't differentiate between the two except for NFA guns.



The sad part is that the gun lobby and many of the posters in this thread are making sure red flag laws will not pass in most states. I also thought it strange that people on the no fly list were allowed to buy guns. From https://va.org/guns-and-the-no-fly-list/

Back in 2010, the Government Accountability Office (GAO), noticed that there is no prohibition for the people on the ‘no-fly list’ to buy guns and ammunition, and they can easily be given licenses and ammunition through the standard procedure just as an ordinary citizen of the country. From 2004-2010, around 1400 individuals applied for the guns and 1321 succeeded in purchasing the required ammunition which means more than 90% of the people who are barred from taking flights from or in or over the US and are suspected to be a terrorist can buy guns. No law was resisting the members of a terrorist organization to purchase firearms.



Really? Our homicide rate is ok? I work with a guy that has full auto Tommy gun, and a friend with a license to have one. He does have a suppressor for his USP tactical. It is a joy to shoot with little recoil no need for ear protection.

I wonder how many mass shooters would have the balls to go on a shooting spree with out the
I know a man who was put on the no-fly list for simply sharing a name with a terrorist. He was born and raised in the United States. He has absolutely no reason to be on that list. If you are going to use the no-fly list as a metric for gun ownership, you must make the no-fly list accurate.

I'm as pro gun as they come, just in case you want to know my bias.
 

Jramos013

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If ARs or any assault type weapons are banned because they are "deadlier", we should ban every car that can run into a crowd, or every knive capable of cutting a neck......

That Being said, I dont know the current policies, but that last time I lived in the states, you could buy them at walmart or any pawnshop without many questions. Making them too accesible could also be problematic. Their easy accesibility plus lack education and lack of common sense/nutjubs is the real problem. Here in PR in order to get any firearm you have to apply for a weapons permit so you can own one and another permit to CC. Any one can apply and most would get it unless theres criminal activity or something like that. The wait times vary, right now theres new legislation for laxing it a bit but theres still a background check.

Someone who wants to do harm will do it regardless of the method, like the bostom marathon bomber. He used a pressure cooker and nails. Should we ban pressure cookers and nails?
 
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Tranz Zam

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MA
The second amendment has zero to do with hunting. It is in place to allow the PEOPLE to maintain arms against a tyrannical government. Period. Full stop.


Now I support your right to hunt, not like the same things I do and no see the sense of an armed populace. That’s fine, many of us have bled for your right to have that opinion and many others.

But please understand that your perception of why many of us own firearms is not a byproduct of marketing or any other nonsense.

It is a GOD given right and I shall exercise it anyway I see fit. I also hunt, fish and shoot competitions. None of those activities are part of what the second amendment is about.
Ding ding ding! We have a winner!

I always laugh when people bring up hunting when talking about the 2A.
 

WallyWest

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That Being said, I dont know the current policies, but that last time I lived in the states, you could buy them at walmart or any pawnshop without many questions.
Unless the last time you lived in the states was before 1968 you had to fill out form 4473 every time you purchased a gun from a dealer. That form asks quite a few questions, and requires you to show ID, and lying on it is a felony. And it is followed by a federal background check you must pass.

The only legal way you can buy a gun without that form, and the federal background check that comes with it, is a private party sale in some states. Quite a few states have outlawed that however and ALL gun sales must go through a dealer with the background check.

Buying a gun is one of the most heavily regulated things in this country.
 

EDRN

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Kantuckee
The second amendment has zero to do with hunting. It is in place to allow the PEOPLE to maintain arms against a tyrannical government. Period. Full stop.


Now I support your right to hunt, not like the same things I do and no see the sense of an armed populace. That’s fine, many of us have bled for your right to have that opinion and many others.

But please understand that your perception of why many of us own firearms is not a byproduct of marketing or any other nonsense.

It is a GOD given right and I shall exercise it anyway I see fit. I also hunt, fish and shoot competitions. None of those activities are part of what the second amendment is about.
I didn't mention anything about the second amendment. I'm sorry you mistakenly read that much into it, and it's odd that you automatically assumed that someone who has a different opinion than yours is someone who does not support the right to keep and bear arms. I know that that right is granted by the constitution, but I thought Jesus said you only needed to sell your cloak to buy a sword, and only two swords at that (my God only allows a handgun, shotgun, and two rifles). I simply said that people seem to own more guns than they need. If guns are made and sold in order to protect the populace from the tyranny of government, then the distribution of those firearms is simply not adequate for that purpose, and the NRA needs to do a better job appealing to the average American. I know there were a lot of new gun owners once this COVID stuff kicked up, and it was odd to see some of the disparaging comments made about them, since encouraging widespread gun ownership is the right thing to do.

But who is going to protect who from whom, especially when there's such an "I'm right, you're wrong" cultural/ political dichotomy these days? Are you going to protect me from a government I voted for? Should I protect you from a government you voted for? Ammon Bundy tried it, but the Hammonds didn't want his help, not enough people showed up, and in the end the federal government still controls the refuge. And would a government, foreign or domestic, need to send troops into our cities in order to subvert us? I think COVID has proven how effective a biological attack would be without a single shot being fired, not to mention how badly a cyberattack would cripple us. Imagine an EMP going off. CJ owners and the Amish would be the only ones on the roads.

What is more practical than owning a firearm for the purpose of defending one's life and the lives of loved ones? It's basic natural law.
I never said it wasn't. Again, I own and carry a gun for personal defense. I have and maintain CCW license despite my state being a constitutional carry state. But we were discussing the number of guns that exist vs the number of gun owners, and it seems to me that there's a mismatch. Perhaps that, among other things, is one of the reasons criminals can easily access firearms.
 

Jramos013

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Unless the last time you lived in the states was before 1968 you had to fill out form 4473 every time you purchased a gun from a dealer. That form asks quite a few questions, and requires you to show ID, and lying on it is a felony. And it is followed by a federal background check you must pass.

The only legal way you can buy a gun without that form, and the federal background check that comes with it, is a private party sale in some states. Quite a few states have outlawed that however and ALL gun sales must go through a dealer with the background check.

Buying a gun is one of the most heavily regulated things in this country.
It wasn't that far back, Is there a waiting period for that background check? Back in 2014 i wanted to buy a .22 long rifle in KY and the guy at the front told me i could take it home that same day. Granted a .22 is not the same as an AR but still a firearm. Never got around to buying any at all.


Edit: did a search, apparently some states don't have a waiting period


Whats the point of the background check if you can walk away with the weapon the same day?
 

Rubi04

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I didn't mention anything about the second amendment. I'm sorry you mistakenly read that much into it, and it's odd that you automatically assumed that someone who has a different opinion than yours is someone who does not support the right to keep and bear arms. I know that that right is granted by the constitution, but I thought Jesus said you only needed to sell your cloak to buy a sword, and only two swords at that (my God only allows a handgun, shotgun, and two rifles). I simply said that people seem to own more guns than they need. If guns are made and sold in order to protect the populace from the tyranny of government, then the distribution of those firearms is simply not adequate for that purpose, and the NRA needs to do a better job appealing to the average American. I know there were a lot of new gun owners once this COVID stuff kicked up, and it was odd to see some of the disparaging comments made about them, since encouraging widespread gun ownership is the right thing to do.

But who is going to protect who from whom, especially when there's such an "I'm right, you're wrong" cultural/ political dichotomy these days? Are you going to protect me from a government I voted for? Should I protect you from a government you voted for? Ammon Bundy tried it, but the Hammonds didn't want his help, not enough people showed up, and in the end the federal government still controls the refuge. And would a government, foreign or domestic, need to send troops into our cities in order to subvert us? I think COVID has proven how effective a biological attack would be without a single shot being fired, not to mention how badly a cyberattack would cripple us. Imagine an EMP going off. CJ owners and the Amish would be the only ones on the roads.


I never said it wasn't. Again, I own and carry a gun for personal defense. I have and maintain CCW license despite my state being a constitutional carry state. But we were discussing the number of guns that exist vs the number of gun owners, and it seems to me that there's a mismatch. Perhaps that, among other things, is one of the reasons criminals can easily access firearms.

You didn’t have to mention the 2nd amendment.

This quote said all it needed.

(YOU) I have a bolt-action .308 for hunting, a pump 12ga for birds, a lever action .22 for my nephew, and a handgun for carry. I used to have an H&K .40, but I cut it in half with a grinder in 2018 on principle and bought a revolver.(YOU)

Hunting. You cut up a gun on principal.


Your words say enough that you think of anyone owns a semi auto or wants it for purposes other than hunting or if your revolver doesn’t get it done, says enough.



So you are saying you want to limit the number of guns I can own (what does this do exactly), the types I own (again, I only need a bolt action, a pump, a .22 and a revolver to exist?) and you talk about the government and what a straw man that your version or what you perceive as tyranny? We may not have the same views on what you voted for or what you believe in. BUT, you can live your life how you see fit and I’ll live mine.


You don’t see me telling you to limit your interests. Or constitutional rights. Nor will I. I won’t tell you you need to stand up for your rights. Or exercise them. Own things you view as “bad”. You do you.

Just step up or step out of the way. We fought a revolutionary war where only 3% of the population fought.

That’s fine.

We also had a civil war where Americans fought each other over ideals as well.


Point is, if I want 20 Ar15’s I will own them. I’ll arm my neighbors, my friends, anyone who wants to help if the time comes. I love, and I live in a country that allows this. I will stand up for it as I have in the past and will always stand up for it in the future.
 

Brianj5600

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I think it is laughable that the three percenters believe that they can take down a tyrannical government. And who gets to decide what is tyrannical? No matter how cool your guns are you won't last long. A thorn in the side at best. As far a it being hard to buy a gun...only from a dealer.

It is crazy how people in this thread think I want an "assault rifle" ban and confiscation, that is your imagination. I have no desire to own one. I would prefer that people wanting to buy the deadliest weapons be looked into a little better. I also agree that universal background checks be implemented as do an overwhelming percentage of the population.

My next gun purchase will be “The greatest battle implement ever devised” followed by a WWII era 1911. If I had to wait to clear an extensive background check I wouldn't care. I don't plan on going to battle anytime soon. Just another toy.
 

Rubi04

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I think it is laughable that the three percenters believe that they can take down a tyrannical government. And who gets to decide what is tyrannical? No matter how cool your guns are you won't last long. A thorn in the side at best. As far a it being hard to buy a gun...only from a dealer.

It is crazy how people in this thread think I want an "assault rifle" ban and confiscation, that is your imagination. I have no desire to own one. I would prefer that people wanting to buy the deadliest weapons be looked into a little better. I also agree that universal background checks be implemented as do an overwhelming percentage of the population.

My next gun purchase will be “The greatest battle implement ever devised” followed by a WWII era 1911. If I had to wait to clear an extensive background check I wouldn't care. I don't plan on going to battle anytime soon. Just another toy.
Do you know how the NICS works? Did you know that not all states talk to each other? Did you know....that backgrounds aren’t good at preventing crime?!?

🤭😳

Also, you can laugh all you want about our populous not being able to take down a tyrannical government. Remember Vietnam? Remember Afghanistan? They are third world countries that resisted the most powerful military forces in the world. I also laugh that people who have no clue about warfare think that the might of a military’s force, which you think ALL will follow orders and not side with a resistance, can conduct guerrilla warfare and that we don’t need to line up like the British and shoot in formation.

It’s fine to be where your at. Nobody said you have to have the same views.
 

Rubi04

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Ok all, I’m out. I get too involved in this and it goes nowhere. I won’t be changing minds and I’m not a influential person. You do your thing, I do mine. Just understand we can disagree on things and in the end, I’ll give you a beer or coke over a fire. 😉
 

Squatch

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Ok all, I’m out. I get too involved in this and it goes nowhere. I won’t be changing minds and I’m not a influential person. You do your thing, I do mine. Just understand we can disagree on things and in the end, I’ll give you a beer or coke over a fire. 😉
As long as you don't bail on the forum, completely. Because, you know, no one's ever done that... ;)
 

Rubi04

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As long as you don't bail on the forum, completely. Because, you know, no one's ever done that... ;)

Nope!! Just this thread!! I am not rage quitting just see that I’m too emotionally invested and that’s not good. 😉

I love this forum and the people here. We can’t all be on the same page, that would be boring.


I’m working on me, I know where this is going so....I will stop!
 

L J

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But we were discussing the number of guns that exist vs the number of gun owners, and it seems to me that there's a mismatch.
I agree. There aren't enough gun owners.

Perhaps that, among other things, is one of the reasons criminals can easily access firearms.
That's just naive. Criminals in the US, or any country that claims strict gun regulation, have no problems accessing firearms because they always want them and someone is always willing to supply them.