OP
Yes, the actual copper wire insulation. The stuff that when it's gone causes the wiring to short together or short to ground.
Unbelievable, biodegradable wiring insulation
- Thread starter Jerry Bransford
- Start date
How long does an auto manufacturer expect it's product to last? How is biodegradable wire insulation different than planned obsolescence?
They are forcing the industry to move away from oil based products in order to promote being green. The bigger issue is recycling and what winds up in landfills. Recycling typical copper wire with normal insulation is difficult due to the longevity of normal insulation. If you make it biodegradable, it is easier to deal with in the long term.
Once the bio is separated from the wire, it can go into a landfill and degrade easier. The challenge is figuring out how fast to make it degrade.
You are looking at it from the tiny owner perspective and missing the big picture and I'm not saying you're wrong because I could view it the same. It's all about evil oil and our dependence on it.
In addition to that, there is little incentive for BMW, Jeep, etc to have their vehicles last forever. Early Cub Cadet lawn mowers are an interesting example of extreme longevity as an unsustainable business model.
All that the manufacturers care about is the initial sale followed by some length of time to make potential buyers believe the current new models are reliable enough for them. After that, the car can get tossed for all they care. Now make that old car easier to recycle. Then buy a new car.
Interesting. Now I want to go look up the Fokker Elmo engineering specs that we use on our aircraft.
It's fine. Pigeons don't like soy based food. They consider it similar to tofu. Now if rats had wings, we'd all be in trouble.
If I liked the car a bunch, I would do a cost analysis on buying a replacement versus having the harness removed and reworked with new wire. I would factor in if the stuff that is in more protected areas like the interior is in good condition. If it is, that would reduce the cost a fair bit.Back in the 90's the European Manufacturers Association started mandating the use of biodegradable wiring insulation in automobiles. Yep, I researched that and it's true!
My 2004 BMW 330ci had a burned out headlight last year. When I removed the headlight, the wiring leading to the connector was all bare! The insulation had disintegrated and was laying in a pile inside the headlight bucket. I covered the wires as best I could with electrical tape but then knew I was driving a ticking timebomb.
Then my brake lights went on 2-3 weeks ago and they won't shut off. My radio turns on & off when it feels like it, my seatbelt light flashes continuously, and my cruise control light is on all the time now. The button at the end of the turn signal stalk no longer works to change the display from time to temperature, mpg, etc.
So when my brake light went on continually, I figured it was the wiring insulation and research confirmed it. Wiring problems are now common and affecting BMWs, Mercedes, Volvo, Audi, and others. Un-friggingbelievable. After lots of googling I found videos and photos of wiring bundles with bare wires everywhere. A few suggested a replacement brake light switch would fix it so out of desperation, I installed a new $60 BMW brake light switch (a back-breaker job) but it didn't help.
So now I'm forced to buy a replacement car. What's funny is all the BMWs I've finding in my search for a low-cost used car. Their resale values are nothing now. I'm confining my search to Japanese and Korean car companies. But then I found that even they switched to some kind of soy based insulation instead of petroleum based insulation. The soy formulation attracts RATS who love to chew soy wiring insulation. In some areas dealers are seeing lots of cars with serious wiring problems caused by rats.
Shit I'm afraid of them all now. My Jeep is no longer daily-driver friendly so it has to be some kind of car but I'm just afraid of them all now. I'm still convinced it has to be a Japanese/Korean. Maybe an American if I can find the right one. Maybe a Jeep but whatever I get it just has to be a small economical car I can zip around in to my various clients during the day.
Frigging unthinking environmentalists.
OP
Exactly, I realized that right away after I learned about the biodegradable wiring. The manufacturers were no doubt quite enthusiastic to adopt the mandate which could only mean more sales for them.
OP
I have seriously considered that since it is in otherwise good condition, if I only knew of a shop that had the expertise to do it properly and not eff it up or overcharge me I would likely go that route. But in the hundreds of threads in BMW forums I have devoured about this problem none mentioned successfully having done that. I have poured over the wiring I can get to looking for the problem but very little is accessible. Compared to the Jeep's easily accessible wiring it seems like a dark haunted medieval castle with lots of secret passageways with hidden nooks and crannies full of wiring meant to never again see the light of day. If in another life you were the keeper of the keys for such medieval castles I would say you're hired!
Don't get me started on my disdain for BMWs. I've owned so many of them, and I'll never, ever, ever own one again. My mom will tell you the same thing as well, as she liked her BMW at first, but grew to hate it.
The rule of thumb with BMWs and all higher end European brands is you only lease them or own them while they are under warranty. Once they are out of warranty, they are insanely expensive to own, extremely burdensome, and problematic to say the least.
As far as daily drivers go, I won't own it unless it's Japanese or American (certain American at least).
Honda, Toyota, and Subaru are among the vehicles I've had the best luck with.
The rule of thumb with BMWs and all higher end European brands is you only lease them or own them while they are under warranty. Once they are out of warranty, they are insanely expensive to own, extremely burdensome, and problematic to say the least.
As far as daily drivers go, I won't own it unless it's Japanese or American (certain American at least).
Honda, Toyota, and Subaru are among the vehicles I've had the best luck with.
I have leased a ton of Toyota Camrys here in the Middle East. Harsh environment (sandy and hot) and lots of stop and go traffic. We have had zero mechanical failures in the last ten years. Bad tires, accidents and scratches, but zero breakdowns. One of my Camrys took a rear end hit from a full sized Benz. I was stopped in traffic, the impact was probably at 15-20 mph. Minimal cosmetic damage. When hit square, it took the bunch and was still driveable. Impressive.
OP
In 1970-71 had a 1968 BMW 2002 and even it had electrical problems. About once a month I'd have to repair a blown circuit path on its instrument panel circuit board. Its brake lights stopped working, a connector had been crimped too tightly which cut all but one strand in the wire. Similar problems kept developing so I traded it in on a virtually trouble free Triumph TR-6. I should have learned from that first BMW lol.BMW cars were at their apex with the 1600. Been heading downhill ever since.
I had a customer with a BMW 1600. That was a very basic car that was a real pleasure to work on. He always said the new 2002's were junk. Not sure if he was correct, but he said the 1600 was the last hand assembled BMW. German cars or perhaps Bosch electronics always had wiring gremlins. When we did state inspections and on the German or Swedish cars, we always had to chase lights out. Wiring, sockets, bulbs etc. Vermont was a corrosive environment that was too harsh for European products. Don't get me started on the fuse block on the old Rabbits. Antenna cable dripped salty water right on it, and those cheesy porcelain fuses and connections would corrode and short out.
Babygools99
TJ Enthusiast
From a Manufacturers perspective, biodegradable wiring is a win-win situation, and a very profitable one. They get a huge thumbs up for the progressive thinking of going green, and they also get to make a product that noone wabts to fix with a lifespan of the warranty they decide to put it under, they price out the repair as needing an entire wiring harness, which leaves the sorry sucker who purchased the product the option of a very expensive dealer repair, or buying a brand new car. The sad truth is 85% of people don't even realize that the issue was the biodegradable wiring harness, so they just trade up to the next piece of junk the company offers. I feel like they took a page out of the pharmacuteical companies handbook, and are running with it.
I feel the big home improvement stores follow this same principle with some of their products despite the brand names they carry. Doesn't cover everything in there but I really try and do my research on a product first, then seeing if it's sold at Lowes or Home Depot, not the other way around. There's a lot of cheap crap being sold regardless of the logo on the box.
I understand just slightly more than the basics of 12V DC circuits and on a good day, I can find the harness tape. I don't have the patience for a new harness and I suck at reading wiring diagrams so I would not ever do that job.
When I worked at the auto repair shop, it was common and expected for every BMW that came in to have electrical issues of some sort. When I asked the owner why none of the car owners fixed the problems, he said they like the cars but the repairs were too expensive due to the price of the parts like the little panels with all the lights that show when a tail light is out and similar.
As long ago as that was, I figured they would have gotten better, not worse.
My former 2010 BMW 535 with N54 engine didn't even have a dipstick. Brought it to the dealership for an oil change, 25 miles later the engine seized on the highway. No way for an average person to check the oil level as you have to reply on the computer. Simple electrical issue can tell the mechanic there is oil in the car and he then lets the owner drive off.
BMW bought me a new engine, but my warranty had to eat some of the cost. We now have a Dodge which is nicer than that 535 and also the E550 we had in between.