What makes RockJock better than JKS or BDS? OR Auto VS Man Pt37

[Rickyd]

When doing statistical analysis with a data set that’s less than ideal, it’s not uncommon to throw away your largest and smallest result as outliers. Maybe we should do that to the people who claim thermostats can fix a broken cooling system?

The fallacy in that would be comparing your scenario to mine. In one case you have a broken cooling system.in the other you have a non overdrive trans that can't be coupled to low enough gearing to achieve comparable engine braking to an ax15 without losing freeway driveability.

Good lord,its like you guys think there can be no conceiveable scenario where an auto isn't better.

Instead i get childish remarks like this-

That's it, I'm selling all my autos.

 

[mrblaine]

The fallacy in that would be comparing your scenario to mine. In one case you have a broken cooling system.in the other you have a non overdrive trans that can't be coupled to low enough gearing to achieve comparable engine braking to an ax15 without loosing freeway driveability.

Good lord,its like you guys think can be no conceiveable scenario where an auto isn't better.

Instead i get childish remarks like this-

No, you have a problem that is easily remedied and you shoot down every answer someone offers. You do know you can fix the brakes and hot brakes don't always mean brakes that have gone away. Hot brakes you can smell are a fucking nothing burger. You've decided the problem is unsolvable but want to stay in a discussion where no answer has any merit you will consider. 90% of this discussion is you saying it can't be solved, therefore manuals are better which as that point, fuck it, I'm selling all my autos and that answer has as much to do with this conversation as your crap.

 

[Mr. Bills]

The fallacy in that would be comparing your scenario to mine. In one case you have a broken cooling system.in the other you have a non overdrive trans that can't be coupled to low enough gearing to achieve comparable engine braking to an ax15 without loosing freeway driveability.

You could just fix your brakes, or better yet, upgrade to a Black Magic brake kit that will stop your jeep on those steep Northstate logging roads and skid trails that you seem to think are so unique. Then it won't matter what transmission you have.

I can tell you from experience that @mrblaine 's Black Magic brakes work on the steep logging roads and skid trails in Shasta, Siskiyou, and Trinity counties. There is no reason to think that they won't work just as well in the adjoining coastal counties to the west.

 

[Rickyd]

No, you have a problem that is easily remedied and you shoot down every answer someone offers. You do know you can fix the brakes and hot brakes don't always mean brakes that have gone away. Hot brakes you can smell are a fucking nothing burger. You've decided the problem is unsolvable but want to stay in a discussion where no answer has any merit you will consider. 90% of this discussion is you saying it can't be solved, therefore manuals are better which as that point, fuck it, I'm selling all my autos and that answer has as much to do with this conversation as your crap.

1,I'm not saying the brakes are broken.stop trying to put your words as mine. This isn't a problem to be fixed. It was supposed to be a civil conversation about my situation.
2,you mentioned regearing. Exactly what gearing do you recommend for 31" tires/3.73/32rh that won't kill freeway driving and come close to the compression braking performance of a high geared jeep with 4.10/33s/ax15?
3,even geared down it will still rev in order for the torque converter to provide compression braking.hence more noise and yet another point for the manual
4,nobody is giving alternatives that are relevant. "I have 5.38s and a 42rle" isn't helpful. You already know there aren't any good overdrive options for the early tj's that will then allow me to gear low enough to come close to the ax15.

When you have something useful to say please provide it. Making childish statements and trying to portray me as an idiot is a disservice to you

 

[Rickyd]

You could just fix your brakes, or better yet, upgrade to a Black Magic brake kit that will stop your jeep on those steep Northstate logging roads and skid trails that you seem to think are so unique. Then it won't matter what transmission you have.

I can tell you from experience that @mrblaine 's Black Magic brakes work on the steep logging roads and skid trails in Shasta, Siskiyou, and Trinity counties. There is no reason to think that they won't work just as well in the adjoining coastal counties to the west.

See above response. The brakes aren't broken.they just don't need to be used in the first place with an ax15

 

[jjvw]

1,I'm not saying the brakes are broken.stop trying to put your words as mine. This isn't a problem to be fixed. It was supposed to be a civil conversation about my situation.
2,you mentioned regearing. Exactly what gearing do you recommend for 31" tires/3.73/32rh that won't kill freeway driving and come close to the compression braking performance of a high geared jeep with 4.10/33s/ax15?
3,even geared down it will still rev in order for the torque converter to provide compression braking.hence more noise and yet another point for the manual
4,nobody is giving alternatives that are relevant. "I have 5.38s and a 42rle" isn't helpful. You already know there aren't any good overdrive options for the early tj's that will then allow me to gear low enough to come close to the ax15.

When you have something useful to say please provide it. Making childish statements and trying to portray me as an idiot is a disservice to you

Just because I enjoy numbers for occasions such as this to bring things into fair comparison, here are two charts. Both are 31" tires and the 231 t case.

The first is 3.73 with the ax15 and a 42rle with gearing to closely match the ax15 final drive...

The second is both the ax15 and 42rle with respective gearings that bring the final drives up to 3k at 75mph...

What catches my attention is how not far apart the lower gear crawl speeds are between the two transmissions. And the auto on paper tends to be a lower rpm. Which makes me wonder what the argument is.

 

[Rickyd]

Just because I enjoy numbers for occasions such as this to bring things into fair comparison, here are two charts. Both are 31" tires and the 231 t case.

The first is 3.73 with the ax15 and a 42rle with gearing to closely match the ax15 final drive...
View attachment 533286

The second is both the ax15 and 42rle with respective gearings that bring the final drives up to 3k at 75mph...
View attachment 533288

What catches my attention is how not far apart the lower gear crawl speeds are between the two transmissions. And the auto on paper tends to be a lower rpm. Which makes me wonder what the argument is.

Now do the math for a 32rh.

Then add the fact the motor needs to rev for the torque converter to have compression braking so it winds up going even faster.

The higher geared 4.10/32.5/ax15 tj in question has a slower crawl ratio and faster top end speed. The first comes into play during compression braking and the second comes into play on the freeway. This is about transmission gear ratio spread. It isn't something to be "fixed" except by using an overdrive auto and lower gears than the manual equipped tj has.but it will still wind up revving to get compression braking unless you rig up the torque converter lock at crawl speeds.

The non overdrive 32rh/30.5"/3.73 is a compromise. It is spinning 3000 at 73 mph and going faster at crawl speeds.

Its easy to think of jeeps in terms of what you guys use them for. Most of the guys i know use their jeeps like i do. We aren't surprised by the facts I'm presenting.

 

[jjvw]

Now do the math for a 32rh.

Then add the fact the motor needs to rev for the torque converter to have compression braking so it winds up going even faster.

The higher geared 4.10/32.5/ax15 tj in question has a slower crawl ratio and faster top end speed. The first comes into play during compression braking and the second comes into play on the freeway. This is about transmission gear ratio spread. It isn't something to be "fixed" except by using an overdrive auto and lower gears than the manual equipped tj has.but it will still wind up revving to get compression braking unless you rig up the torque converter lock at crawl speeds.

The non overdrive 32rh/30.5"/3.73 is a compromise. It is spinning 3000 at 73 mph and going faster at crawl speeds.

Its easy to think of jeeps in terms of what you guys use them for. Most of the guys i know use their jeeps like i do. We aren't surprised by the facts I'm presenting.

This is 32rh vs 42rle with comparable final drive gearing. Notice that with 31" tires, your gearing is 3.73 vs 5.38. Which is interesting all by itself to achieve 3k rpm @ 75mph and no one does this on the 42rle...

Far more common is to have 3.73 for both of these hypothetical TJs and suddenly the crawl speeds are nearly identical...

All this does is put me back at not knowing what the real world argument is.

 

[MikeE024]

I have seen several out here or the same one multiple times.
View attachment 532944

 

[jjvw]

View attachment 533332

View attachment 533330

There should be more weird vehicles on the road.

 

[Mr. Bills]

nobody is giving alternatives that are relevant.

Not so. Several relevant alternatives have been presented, but none you are willing to accept.

[T]rying to portray me as an idiot is a disservice to you makes my butt hurt.

Fixed it for you.

 

[Rickyd]

This is 32rh vs 42rle with comparable final drive gearing. Notice that with 31" tires, your gearing is 3.73 vs 5.38. Which is interesting all by itself to achieve 3k rpm @ 75mph and no one does this on the 42rle...
View attachment 533328

Far more common is to have 3.73 for both of these hypothetical TJs and suddenly the crawl speeds are nearly identical...
View attachment 533331

All this does is put me back at not knowing what the real world argument is.

Leave the 42rle out of the equation altogether. Then start rereading my posts. You might get there eventually

 

[Rickyd]

Not so. Several relevant alternatives have been presented, but none you are willing to accept.

Name them. How exactly are you going to get a 32rh to have as good of compression braking as a taller geared ax15 and freeway performance at the same time?

 

[jjvw]

Leave the 42rle out of the equation altogether. Then start rereading my posts. You might get there eventually

I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt that there is some consideration I am not grasping from my short time being under geared with the 42rle and 35s on some very steep downhills where I had no trouble with engine braking alone.

 

[Rickyd]

I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt that there is some consideration I am not grasping from my short time being under geared with the 42rle and 35s on some very steep downhills where I had no trouble with engine braking alone.

I get that.your idea of adequate compression braking worked for your uses.you didn't die or lose your brakes or control.so to you maybe I'm talking nonsense because i must have the same criteria and uses.Our rigs don't get used the same way.

It isn't that what i do is extreme. It is that my manual(and the yj,cj guys with manuals)will go slower than a lower geared auto.the autos wind up riding their brakes trying to slow down to our pace.

Should it be a terrible thing that manuals have one or two advantages over some autos? Does it need to be an insult to guys that run autos? Do your uses and criteria need to be the only valid ones?

 

[MikeE024]

[M]y manual(and the yj,cj guys with manuals)will go slower than a lower geared auto.the autos wind up riding their brakes trying to slow down to our pace.

Should it be a terrible thing that manuals have one or two advantages over some autos? Does it need to be an insult to guys that run autos? Do your uses and criteria need to be the only valid ones?

FWIW, the silly 10.88:1 gearing with the Rubicrawler & 241OR both in low would be happy to snail around...as would the 7.44:1 gearing with the RC & 231 both in low.

And, you could turn OD off or keep the shifter in 2 or 1. That's pretty darn low.

 

[PNW_LJ]

FWIW, the silly 10.88:1 gearing with the Rubicrawler & 241OR both in low would be happy to snail around.

Ricky, would a 4:1 behind a 32RH solve your problem?

 

[jjvw]

I get that.your idea of adequate compression braking worked for your uses.you didn't die or lose your brakes or control.so to you maybe I'm talking nonsense because i must have the same criteria and uses.Our rigs don't get used the same way.

It isn't that what i do is extreme. It is that my manual(and the yj,cj guys with manuals)will go slower than a lower geared auto.the autos wind up riding their brakes trying to slow down to our pace.

Should it be a terrible thing that manuals have one or two advantages over some autos? Does it need to be an insult to guys that run autos? Do your uses and criteria need to be the only valid ones?

I'm only going by what I have observed and by I know from mine with multiple tire sizes, gearings and two different transmissions. I am also fairly good at extrapolating into areas I might not have experience with. Like I said, I give you the benefit of the doubt that there is some maybe specific performative nuance you are looking for that I do not understand. If we were together on one of these roads, we would be experimenting and testing because I would be interested in understanding more about what is going on.

 

[MikeE024]

Ricky, would a 4:1 behind a 32RH solve your problem?

It sounds like he's happy with his setup and that there's no problem for him.

I mentioned the Rubicrawler above simply to point out that an auto-trans TJ can run impractically low gearing.

 

[Rickyd]

FWIW, the silly 10.88:1 gearing with the Rubicrawler & 241OR both in low would be happy to snail around...as would the 7.44:1 gearing with the RC & 231 both in low.

And, you could turn OD off or keep the shifter in 2 or 1. That's pretty darn low.

I would love to have a 42rle.or some form of overdrive auto. I'm really not trying to alienate you guys with autos. Auto or manual both have their upsides

Ricky, would a 4:1 behind a 32RH solve your problem?

4:1 would definitely give a slower mph during compression braking and effectively give the jeep a wider ratio spread.The 32rh itself is still a compromise born from transmission gearing employed 100(?) years ago.Transmissions with a wider ratio spread are just able to do more.Able to make the vehicle go both slower and faster.