Wildman's TJ is getting a face lift

[Wildman]

That 9" gap is roughly equivalent to 3" of up travel on a 4" spring lift. Try harder.

Dent the tub to get the axle higher.
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Also, trim the uppers so that the round seat is contacting the frame arch on both sides. This will raise the collapsed height of the bags relative to the frame.
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I've got the spring pads so they are touching the frame pretty close. I know in my one picture it is hanging down just a little but it goes all the way to the frame. When I clamp them in I'll make sure they are flush to the frame.

Are you saying that with a 4" lift spring when you have 9" of space between upper and lower pads that is 3" of up travel? And what is the total up travel?

 

[jjvw]

I've got the spring pads so they are touching the frame pretty close. I know in my one picture it is hanging down just a little but it goes all the way to the frame. When I clamp them in I'll make sure they are flush to the frame.

There is more to trim.

Are you saying that with a 4" lift spring when you have 9" of space between upper and lower pads that is 3" of up travel? And what is the total up travel?

At my full bump (shocks collapsed), I believe there is about 6" between seats. Mine is set up for a little more than 6" of up on a 4" spring lift.

 

[Wildman]

There is more to trim.



At my full bump (shocks collapsed), I believe there is about 6" between seats. Mine is set up for a little more than 6" of up on a 4" spring lift.

Okay looking at your picture you cut along the edge of the pad mounts and pushed the pads as close to frame as you could? I'm still limited to a maximum collapsed distance of 8" so 2" more than what you have.

 

[jjvw]

This is where thinking about the ride height and total bag travel needs to be considered. Your up seems like it will be limited by the collapsed bag. Your droop is going to be determined by the stretched out bag. The shock travel should match that. Your (operating) ride height is what divides the travel bias of the bags and ultimately the positioning of the shocks.

The way it looks and if you're lucky you might get about 5" of up at the equivalent of a 4" spring lift if you dent the tub and raise the bags higher into the frame arch.

 

[mrblaine]

Okay looking at your picture you cut along the edge of the pad mounts and pushed the pads as close to frame as you could? I'm still limited to a maximum collapsed distance of 8" so 2" more than what you have.

Yes, but the higher you can move the top of the air bag up equates to more uptravel. But, you need to figure out some more before you commit. Your tire size may not let you use all of the uptravel if you don't want to trim the wheel openings higher.

Don't worry about more uptravel until you get some more mocked up, back of the tub anchored better to the frame and can cycle it safely.

And just in case you didn't see it, I tipped a rig off of 8 jack stands by just jacking up one frame horn 1/2" to slide a piece of 1/4" in on top of the jack stand to level it. I don't jack them up without them being tied down.

 

[Wildman]

This is where thinking about the ride height and total bag travel needs to be considered. Your up seems like it will be limited by the collapsed bag. Your droop is going to be determined by the stretched out bag. The shock travel should match that. Your (operating) ride height is what divides the travel bias of the bags and ultimately the positioning of the shocks.

The way it looks and if you're lucky you might get about 5" of up at the equivalent of a 4" spring lift if you dent the tub and raise the bags higher into the frame arch.

I've got to talk to Steve again at ORO because some of the information I have doesn't make sense. Here is what he wrote to me this morning when I asked for some clarifications on stuff.

Minimum compressed distance, from the bottom of the black bell/piston to the top of the "bead plate" the rounded steel clamp that has the studs extending from it, is 6.25", but I like to design for 7"

So the 8" collapsed distance I have is from the top of the steel brackets in the last picture to the bottom. I need to go back and measure the front piece for the front mount and then I'll have a new collapsed distance.

Then that will give me a better idea the difference between front and rear. Now with that said he also said again I can take the bags to 21" so that would mean the bags can achieve 14" of travel if my setup would allow that. Or am I understanding something wrong?

Yes, but the higher you can move the top of the air bag up equates to more uptravel. But, you need to figure out some more before you commit. Your tire size may not let you use all of the uptravel if you don't want to trim the wheel openings higher.

Don't worry about more uptravel until you get some more mocked up, back of the tub anchored better to the frame and can cycle it safely.

And just in case you didn't see it, I tipped a rig off of 8 jack stands by just jacking up one frame horn 1/2" to slide a piece of 1/4" in on top of the jack stand to level it. I don't jack them up without them being tied down.

Do I remember right that you also tie the back down also?

Once I get the front anchored down do I cycle the rear suspension looking for clearance issues? And as some point I need to set the shock crossmember back in place and see what I am going to have to trim to make my axle clear it. I'm guessing I should bolt it to the tub and then tack it to the frame where it sits?

 

[jjvw]

I would think one could figure out the compressed length of the bag without talking to ORO. Stick it on the Jeep and raise the axle until it stops raising. Same with the droop. Hang the axle from the bag until you think it is beginning to stretch too much.

And if I were installing rings on the floor, I would at least want the four corners. Maybe more depending on what I was needing to secure and stabilize on a regular enough basis.

 

[Wildman]

I would think one could figure out the compressed length of the bag without talking to ORO. Stick it on the Jeep and raise the axle until it stops raising. Same with the droop. Hang the axle from the bag until you think it is beginning to stretch too much.

And if I were installing rings on the floor, I would at least want the four corners. Maybe more depending on what I was needing to secure and stabilize on a regular enough basis.

That much I pretty much have figured out as far as the compressed length of the bags. And the upper mounts for the rear bags are about 1" thick. It's the fronts I need to go out and measure to have a firm compressed height that I'm allowed. I'm just want to ask him what I am thinking and make sure I'm not going to damage the bags.

 

[BuildBreakRepeat]

That much I pretty much have figured out as far as the compressed length of the bags. And the upper mounts for the rear bags are about 1" thick. It's the fronts I need to go out and measure to have a firm compressed height that I'm allowed. I'm just want to ask him what I am thinking and make sure I'm not going to damage the bags.

How much of that upper bag perch could you trim down? It seems excessively large. Anyways none of the compressed stuff matters unless the tires allow more up. I would toss the tires on once you get it all tied down and see how far you can go up.

 

[Wildman]

How much of that upper bag perch could you trim down? It seems excessively large. Anyways none of the compressed stuff matters unless the tires allow more up. I would toss the tires on once you get it all tired down and see how far you can go up.

Well here is where my tires were sitting before when the rear axle was just hitting the shock crossmember.

 

[Wildman]

And then with the corners on the Jeep also. I can't take much more out of the back but I could move my axle back forward an inch if I needed to.

 

[mattcogdell]

And then with the corners on the Jeep also. I can't take much more out of the back but I could move my axle back forward an inch if I needed to.

That seems like you’d be working in reverse going that route.

How much uptravel did you have prior to the stretch?

 

[Wildman]

That seems like you’d be working in reverse going that route.

How much uptravel did you have prior to the stretch?

I honestly can't tell you. The Jeep has been parked for almost 10 years because it broke and then I wasn't physically work on it. I tore it down before I even thought about measuring those things. My best guess for you since I had 10" shocks on it would be 4-5".

Now @jjvw I don't know if this helps you any or not but the on-road ride height is around 11" of air bag (11" spring). So that is pretty close to your 12" with a 4" lift.

I would shoot for the front airspring to be appx 11" installed at the desired ride height, and the rear in that 10-11" range would be good.

I maybe just imagining this but didn’t you say those were stretch corners? It appears like the location (front to back) of the peak of the arch of the wheel well it close to stock location.

It also could be just that your overall opening is larger? It does how ever look like this would limit your uptravel if your suspension doesn’t first.

Yes these are Metal Cloak rear stretch corners that they say allow a 4-5" rear stretch. The flares they sell mount to those tabs you see on the corners.
If you look at the picture without the corners you can see how much I cut the stock wheel well already. And remember these are 37" tall tires you are looking at.

 

[Chris]

And then with the corners on the Jeep also. I can't take much more out of the back but I could move my axle back forward an inch if I needed to.

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Fenders? Who needs fenders?

Regretting not having built a rock buggy yet?

Just imagine... no fenders to worry about

 

[Wildman]

Fenders? Who needs fenders?

Regretting not having built a rock buggy yet?

Just imagine... no fenders to worry about

If I was living in AZ I would be building a rock buggy but up here? FUCK NO....... I am not interested in being cold and miserable when I go wheeling in the rain or snow.

 

[Chris]

If I was living in AZ I would be building a rock buggy but up here? FUCK NO....... I am not interested in being cold and miserable when I go wheeling in the rain or snow.

Same reason I've stayed away from a SxS. They seem fun, until you want to use the heat or A/C

 

[jjvw]

...

Now @jjvw I don't know if this helps you any or not but the on-road ride height is around 11" of air bag (11" spring). So that is pretty close to your 12" with a 4" lift.

...

I'm just trying to get you to see that where things are right now are probably not really where you want them to stay. And that there are things to do that can improve upon where you are.

With the rear axle up to where it where the upper control arms are just touching the tub I'm 9" from upper to lower spring pads. Which is where I want to be at. The rear bags can be collapsed to that.

...

It's worth saying that you are well past the point of ORO being helpful or even understanding what you are trying to accomplish. You are in the realm of making their parts fit better than they ever intended. This means you need to understand how their stuff fits on your Jeep for your application.

It's the same thing as Savvy not being able to tell you how to fit the mid arm as well as Blaine can. You are building, not just installing a kit.

 

[Wildman]

I'm just trying to get you to see that where things are right now are probably not really where you want them to stay. And that there are things to do that can improve upon where you are.




It's worth saying that you are well past the point of ORO being helpful or even understanding what you are trying to accomplish. You are in the realm of making their parts fit better than they ever intended. This means you need to understand how their stuff fits on your Jeep for your application.

It's the same thing as Savvy not being able to tell you how to fit the mid arm as well as Blaine can. You are building, not just installing a kit.

And I do appreciate you trying to get my HEAD to work a little. I'd most likely have just slapped the thing back together and my Jeep would be as "F"d up as it was from the last build. But with people like you, Blaine & Matt plus BRB and everyone else who asks questions and offers their input I really hope this will perform better than I could imagine.

While I agree I am taking the AiRock system way past anything ORO sells as a bolt on system I still think I should be asking Steve what the parameters are that he has designed the kit around. Just the same as if I exceed the design parameters of the Savvy kit it won't perform properly if I exceed what the air bags are designed for I'm just going to cause myself more headaches.

 

[BuildBreakRepeat]

And I do appreciate you trying to get my HEAD to work a little. I'd most likely have just slapped the thing back together and my Jeep would be as "F"d up as it was from the last build. But with people like you, Blaine & Matt plus BRB and everyone else who asks questions and offers their input I really hope this will perform better than I could imagine.

While I agree I am taking the AiRock system way past anything ORO sells as a bolt on system I still think I should be asking Steve what the parameters are that he has designed the kit around. Just the same as if I exceed the design parameters of the Savvy kit it won't perform properly if I exceed what the air bags are designed for I'm just going to cause myself more headaches.

All part of trying something no one has done before. Good on you man, I’m excited to see how it turns out.

 

[jjvw]

....

While I agree I am taking the AiRock system way past anything ORO sells as a bolt on system I still think I should be asking Steve what the parameters are that he has designed the kit around. Just the same as if I exceed the design parameters of the Savvy kit it won't perform properly if I exceed what the air bags are designed for I'm just going to cause myself more headaches.

All the more reason to find out for yourself what those bags compress and extend to. Compare your findings to what Steve says and figure out why it is what it is. Or possibly understand why Steve isn't telling you the whole story because you are working outside the parameters of the kit.

Neither Currie nor Savvy tell us to outboard the rear shocks. Yet we do so to make their stuff work better than the basic kits will.