Water Injection Nozzle (Sizing Question)

[MikeE024]

I've decided to run water injection for controlling IATs and EGTs with the Banks turbo. The Banks injection kit came with the turbo.

Banks sent me to Snow Performance to get a nozzle since they don't make them anymore. Snow's chart says to run the 4 gph nozzle (for a 300 hp system @ the flywheel) if I'm running 50/50 meth, but to spray less for water injection and to spray a little less if I have an intercooler which I will have. Snow did not specify how much less to run.

In my head, there are two main methods I can attempt to tackle this, and I don't know which way is wiser to attempt.

1. Run a 3 gph to 4 gph nozzle at a lower duty cycle beginning around 3 psi (20% to 30% duty cycle) and have full spray (90% duty cycle) come on at a boost pretty a little higher than my boost target so it never achieves full spray.

or

2. Run a smaller nozzle in a size .50 gph to 2.5 gph and have it begin spraying around 3psi (at a higher duty cycle 40%+) and go full spray (90% duty cycle) at my max boost target.

The turbo came with a pyrometer bung installed before the turbo, so I plan to install an EGT gauge and monitor my IATs through live date.

Not sure if @Jezza, @SkylinesSuck, or anyone else might have thoughts or suggestions on how I should approach this. Thanks guys.

 

[SkylinesSuck]

I never messed with this but was always interested. I had a couple of friends who did though and they were very pleased with how it performed. All of our driving was focused around WOT playing though. If you plan on using water/meth, are you planning on it doing it's thing as you drive down the highway?

 

[MikeE024]

I never messed with this but was always interested. I had a couple of friends who did though and they were very pleased with how it performed.

Were they running water injection to cool things, or a meth/water mix to make more safe power?

All of our driving was focused around WOT playing though. If you plan on using water/meth, are you planning on it doing it's thing as you drive down the highway?

Not sure if I’m answering your question…

I have the option to set spray in at least two incriminates.

To keep it simple I’ll just set my minimum spray to begin at let’s say 3 psi, which will come on for in town driving and beyond.

I’ll set the pump max spray at/around full boost which would cool things when passing a vehicle or on a highway hill climb.

My issue is that nozzles are $35 each so I’d like to realistically buy no more than three to get it dialed in.

I don’t know if I should start with a super small nozzle and fire it at a higher rate at minimum to max boost pressures, or start at a larger nozzle and fire it at a lower rate when it begins spraying at my minimum boost setting.

Not sure if the engine will run better via one method or if it doesn’t matter. If it doesn’t matter then I’ll do whatever is easier on the water injection pump and parts (if it matters).

Edit: words

 

[Jezza]

I use the AEM methanol kit. Currently I am using the 500cc/min nozzle. It is programmed to start at 2 or 3 psi and full on by 10. If you plan on running it get it set up before you start tuning. The methanol will make it run richer and should be corrected by reducing injector pulse width. You can really lean into the timing with the methanol. That's where the gains are. It has a cooling effect on the air charge as well, but don't expect any miracles. I never recommend using it as a patch for an inadequate intercooler. IAT's are always high on mine as the 4.0 non-crossflow head essentially heats the intake manifold.

 

[SkylinesSuck]

The two applications I'm thinking of off the top of my head were a 800hp GTR and a 500hp Evo. They were both running north of 1.5bar (20 something psi?) the GTR was tuned to a knife edge without the water/meth. It was getting a little occasional knock as he was probably about at the limits of pump gas. It completely fixed his knock at WOT and it only came on at close to full boost. The Evo actually tuned using it meaning he leaned out his fueling and added timing. If the water/meth quit while he was on it (WOT), his motor would have gone pop. His only came on at high boost also.

In both cases, when we would go out screwing around in the mountains, they were frequently checking their "juice" levels and occasionally topping them off. I don't know what kits (Devil's Own?) they had, nozzle size, water/meth ratio, or if they were being overly paranoid or not. I do think though if you were using it for daily highway driving for example where you were in boost a lot, you would chew through it pretty quick. I don't think it's a viable substitute for an intercooler is what I mean, but if you are just looking for a little more fuel/timing when you are beating on it, I think it's good for that. It's just my second hand semi-informed opinion though.

 

[MikeE024]

I use the AEM methanol kit. Currently I am using the 500cc/min nozzle. It is programmed to start at 2 or 3 psi and full on by 10. If you plan on running it get it set up before you start tuning. The methanol will make it run richer and should be corrected by reducing injector pulse width. You can really lean into the timing with the methanol. That's where the gains are. It has a cooling effect on the air charge as well, but don't expect any miracles. I never recommend using it as a patch for an inadequate intercooler. IAT's are always high on mine as the 4.0 non-crossflow head essentially heats the intake manifold.

If the water/meth quit while he was on it (WOT), his motor would have gone pop. His only came on at high boost also.

I do think though if you were using it for daily highway driving for example where you were in boost a lot, you would chew through it pretty quick. I don't think it's a viable substitute for an intercooler is what I mean, but if you are just looking for a little more fuel/timing when you are beating on it, I think it's good for that. It's just my second hand semi-informed opinion though.

Thanks guys.

I'll be installing a Banks water-to-air intercooler with a custom heat exchanger (radiator) set-up. I'll install the Banks water injection kit that came with my turbo afterward so it will be used for secondary cooling.

I don't plan to run a water/meth mix because the Banks tune is already on the rich side and I don't want to mess with the CARB EO tune until I know if I'll end up working in CA. I thought doing this could help keep IAT temps down and allow for the computer to advance timing on hotter days.

AEM's v3 nozzle has the 250/cc option, but that's still about 4 gph which I believe is too much spray unless it works well when limiting the duty cycle to 10-60%. Snow Performance offers nozzles down to 0.50 GPH so that's why I was looking to go with their nozzles.

I think the best route is to start small and then raise the duty cycle for testing. Then bump up the nozzle size as needed and repeat until I get it right.

edit: words

 

[MikeE024]

@Jezza, what IATs and EGTs are you seeing with and without the water/meth mix?

I realize you are running a much higher boost, but it would be great to know what numbers you see.

 

[Jezza]

@Jezza, what IATs and EGTs are you seeing with and without the water/meth mix?

I realize you are running a much higher boost, but it would be great to know what numbers you see.

I don't run without it. The controller is hard wired and works all the time. IATs are all over the place on these things. The IATs are higher at idle and lower speeds than they are at medium to WOT. It has to do with the hot intake manifold that lives on top of the exhaust. Right now the ambient temps here are in the 50s and 60s which gives me about 100 degree IATs in boost. During the summer when it's 90+ here it's nothing to see 170 or more.

 

[MikeE024]

I don't run without it. The controller is hard wired and works all the time. IATs are all over the place on these things. The IATs are higher at idle and lower speeds than they are at medium to WOT. It has to do with the hot intake manifold that lives on top of the exhaust. Right now the ambient temps here are in the 50s and 60s which gives me about 100 degree IATs in boost. During the summer when it's 90+ here it's nothing to see 170 or more.

Awesome it's helpful to know about your summer temps since I'll be in the 110+ degree temps this coming summer. How often do you go through a gallon of mix?

The intake manifold placement is definitely an issue with heat soak. I've had my engine stumble from a hot start with the stock injectors, and I'll be interested to see if it happens with the larger injectors as well.

I hope the ceramic-coated JBA headers will help reduce some of those issues at idle and lower speeds (not yet installed), and I plan to install a hood louver to help heat escape.

 

[Jezza]

Awesome it's helpful to know about your summer temps since I'll be in the 110+ degree temps this coming summer. How often do you go through a gallon of mix?

The intake manifold placement is definitely an issue with heat soak. I've had my engine stumble from a hot start with the stock injectors, and I'll be interested to see if it happens with the larger injectors as well.

I hope the ceramic-coated JBA headers will help reduce some of those issues at idle and lower speeds (not yet installed), and I plan to install a hood louver to help heat escape.

I probably went through one gallon last year. It doesn't use that much. It depends on how much time you spend in boost. I would wrap the header as well as all the exhaust under the hood. It makes a difference.

 

[MikeE024]

I probably went through one gallon last year. It doesn't use that much. It depends on how much time you spend in boost. I would wrap the header as well as all the exhaust under the hood. It makes a difference.

Super glad to hear it doesn't blow through juice.

I plan to wrap the headers just not sure if I should hit them with high-heat 2k* paint before I wrap them. They are 409 ss Flowmaster headers that I took off when installing the turbo. The turbo came welded to OEM headers with one cat gutted. I gutted the other one so the backpressure to each bank would match during the initial build. They absolutely dreadful, so I plan to swap them out for the Flowmasters asap.

I have 100 ft of 2" titanium-colored lava knock-off wrap sitting in my cart on amazing and I plan to tie them off with hose clamps. The plan is to wrap from the headers to the turbo, and the DP if I have enough wrap left over. I thought about wrapping the manifolds over the ceramic, but I'm concerned that I could overheat the manifolds especially when aftermarket headers don't have a great track record. Any thoughts on that?

 

[SkylinesSuck]

I'm also glad to hear it doesn't blow through water/meth that quick. Maybe the guys I knew were just being paranoid.

My ceramic coated Doug Thorley headers definitely put off a lot less heat. I'm thinking of having my American Racing Headers coated by Swain Tech before I install them. It's ugly as hell but it's supposed to be the best for thermal insulation out there. People talk bad about heat wrap in our jeep applications because splashing water/mud vs rust, but I think it's an overblown issue at best. I was also considering coating the intake and/or fabbing a nice heat shield between the two.

 

[Rickyd]

I'm also glad to hear it doesn't blow through water/meth that quick. Maybe the guys I knew were just being paranoid.

My ceramic coated Doug Thorley headers definitely put off a lot less heat. I'm thinking of having my American Racing Headers coated by Swain Tech before I install them. It's ugly as hell but it's supposed to be the best for thermal insulation out there. People talk bad about heat wrap in our jeep applications because splashing water/mud vs rust, but I think it's an overblown issue at best. I was also considering coating the intake and/or fabbing a nice heat shield between the two.

I used this stick on insulation on the bottom of my intake. Hasn't peeled off or drooped at all in 3 years
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00029KC2K/?tag=wranglerorg-20
Trimmed it to fit.wrapped headers in addition should help a lot

Mikee what boost are you going to run? Is the injection even necessary?

 

[MikeE024]

I'm also glad to hear it doesn't blow through water/meth that quick. Maybe the guys I knew were just being paranoid.

My ceramic coated Doug Thorley headers definitely put off a lot less heat. I'm thinking of having my American Racing Headers coated by Swain Tech before I install them. It's ugly as hell but it's supposed to be the best for thermal insulation out there. People talk bad about heat wrap in our jeep applications because splashing water/mud vs rust, but I think it's an overblown issue at best. I was also considering coating the intake and/or fabbing a nice heat shield between the two.

The turbo kit I received has the exhaust ceramic coated, but it's faded and chalky in some spots. Not sure if it's still working well or not doing much at all.

The PO said that he went to a famous company back east and it was super expensive, but he wasn't impressed. From what I read, Swaine has really good reviews, and I don't know of anyone with a better reputation for ceramic coating.

These are the best photos I could find of the ceramic-coated exhaust in the kit I purchased.

Third Cat

Headers welded to the turbo up-pipe

 

[MikeE024]

I used this stick on insulation on the bottom of my intake. Hasn't peeled off or drooped at all in 3 years
[URL][URL]https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00029KC2K/?tag=wranglerorg-20[/URL][/URL]

Trimmed it to fit.wrapped headers in addition should help a lot

Mikee what boost are you going to run? Is the injection even necessary?

I saw that when looking for a heat wrap to protect my shock/res hose that's near the turbo. It didn't even cross my mind to run that under the intake manifold. Awesome thanks for sharing man!

I have a feeling the PO used something like this when he wrapped the Banks intercooler.

Intercooler

@Rickyd I don't plan on running more than 8psi, but I figured I'd make use of the kit and see if I could lower my IATs and EGTs with some water in addition to adding the intercooler (and learn a little bit in the process since this is my first turbo).

I have an EGT bung installed before the Turbo, just need a gauge/probe for it. Summers are brutal in AZ and Las Vegas, so my focus is on being safe in the 110*+ days.

Feel free to critique and school me. It's all part of the ride.

Here's some of the water/meth injection kit

 

[Rickyd]

I saw that when looking for a heat wrap to protect my shock/res hose that's near the turbo. It didn't even cross my mind to run that under the intake manifold. Awesome thanks for sharing man!

I have a feeling the PO used something like this when he wrapped the Banks intercooler.

Intercooler

View attachment 401398

@Rickyd I don't plan on running more than 8psi, but I figured I'd make use of the kit and see if I could lower my IATs and EGTs with some water in addition to adding the intercooler (and learn a little bit in the process since this is my first turbo).

I have an EGT bung installed before the Turbo, just need a gauge/probe for it. Summers are brutal in AZ and Las Vegas, so my focus is on being safe in the 110*+ days.

Feel free to critique and school me. It's all part of the ride.

Here's some of the water/meth injection kit

View attachment 401399

I couldn't school ya. Hopefully the smart guys can help though.

 

[SkylinesSuck]

I used this stick on insulation on the bottom of my intake. Hasn't peeled off or drooped at all in 3 years
[URL]https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00029KC2K/?tag=wranglerorg-20[/URL]

Trimmed it to fit.wrapped headers in addition should help a lot.

I've got basically the same thing on the bottom of mine. Not sure how much if at all it helps, but the intake was off anyways so I figured it couldn't hurt. I want to make something with metal though that inserts between the intake and header that has an air gap on either side.

One thing that came to mind for me is considering how the intake constantly has relatively cool air flowing through it cooling it down some vs the heat needed to heat the intake up plus how that in turn can heat up the air making it in to the cylinder head. Nothing is really going to keep the intake "cool" after it's been sitting and heat soaking at idle with only a trickle of air flowing through it. How much heat you can keep out of it with the throttle open more and air circulating in the engine bay like when you are driving down the road is a different matter though. I doubt a heat shield is going to show a ton of difference in back to back runs on the dyno, but how it affects intake temps while driving down the road might be different. And after all, the later is all that matters in the real world.

 

[Rickyd]

It would probably need to be something you slide in after torquing the manifolds down. a few mounting tabs welded to the primaries and or tapped into the intake?

 

[SkylinesSuck]

Something like that, yeah.

 

[MikeE024]

How much heat you can keep out of it with the throttle open more and air circulating in the engine bay like when you are driving down the road is a different matter though. I doubt a heat shield is going to show a ton of difference in back to back runs on the dyno, but how it affects intake temps while driving down the road might be different. And after all, the later is all that matters in the real world.

I used the same reasoning to justify the extra $125.00 for the bright ceramic-coated JBA manifolds instead of the uncoated version. Assuming the ceramic coating is legit, I figured that would help reduce heat soak at idle and while driving at lower speeds.

edit: words