Nashville TJ's Build - Continued
- Thread starter NashvilleTJ
- Start date
Well, something like that...
And you get another one...
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View attachment 670146
I was agreeing with you without saying it. I was using your posted pictures for my in depth analysis and response.
I like 51, but don't listen to me, Jeff. I've never set up a gearset (but I will on the LJ). I only like 51 because it's one of those numbers that you'd swear is a prime number, but it isn't. 
Could the problem be that when you reduce the diameter of the ring gear, and then set the ring gear pattern in the middle of the teeth? I would think the R&P would not mesh correctly because pinion depth is off.
I think properly set, the pinion gear still rides in the exact same place on the ring gear as it would without the shave. When I look at the marking compound on the pinion gear, it still starts up at the top of the gear teeth - same as the wear pattern I saw on the old ring gear. It seems like a portion of the pinion teeth at the bottom are not used at all - meaning no wear there - but I think that the way these things are designed to run, you can't artificially center up the pinion gear on the ring gear. When I went way deep - meaning I was really pushing the pinion gear closer to being "centered" on the ring gear, the pattern pushes you back away from that location.
The outside diameter had nothing to do with how the ring and pinion mesh. The pattern doesn't have to line up in the middle of the teeth either. That would happen on a perfect gear set. If it was that simple, everyone would do it.
We're trying to find the best pattern before putting it a little bit deep.
Still waiting for advice from Ben. He did get back to me yesterday with some questions about the rig, the setup, and how I use it. I hope to hear something soon, as I'd like to get this thing buttoned up.
I heard back from Ben. Here is his response:
Thanks Jeff,
I’ve reviewed all of your setups and they all look pretty good.
I like 49/7 the best from the photos as the pattern appears to be centered and a hair deeper than mid tooth.
52/7.5 also looks really good.
Keep in mind that photos can be deceiving but it sounds like you know what you are going for and the patterns looks great to me. You should be good to go.
Ben Brazda
Filthy Motorsports
720-545-2279
I take that to mean that the best "traditional" approach pattern was the 52-7.5. So, Ben agreed with Mike on that one.
For the deep approach, his favorite is the 47-7. So ultimately, he's recommending 3 thou deeper than a standard setting.
It sounds to me like Ben is saying either of these would work. As a final question I replied back and asked if there was any expected downside on the deeper setup. Wear, excess noise, or anything like that.
I do want to make sure these things are quiet - as that's the whole problem I was trying to solve this time.
So, it sounds like I need to decide between these two setups. Anyone have an opinion on which way I should go?
Thanks Jeff,
I’ve reviewed all of your setups and they all look pretty good.
I like 49/7 the best from the photos as the pattern appears to be centered and a hair deeper than mid tooth.
52/7.5 also looks really good.
Keep in mind that photos can be deceiving but it sounds like you know what you are going for and the patterns looks great to me. You should be good to go.
Ben Brazda
Filthy Motorsports
720-545-2279
I take that to mean that the best "traditional" approach pattern was the 52-7.5. So, Ben agreed with Mike on that one.
For the deep approach, his favorite is the 47-7. So ultimately, he's recommending 3 thou deeper than a standard setting.
It sounds to me like Ben is saying either of these would work. As a final question I replied back and asked if there was any expected downside on the deeper setup. Wear, excess noise, or anything like that.
I do want to make sure these things are quiet - as that's the whole problem I was trying to solve this time.
So, it sounds like I need to decide between these two setups. Anyone have an opinion on which way I should go?
I think he’s saying both the 49/7 and 52/7.5 are runnable, but the 49/7 is better. That’s what I’d run. Sounds like Ben will warranty either.
What did I win???
I just went back and looked at both patterns. The 52 is the best non-deep pattern. The 49 is the best "deep" pattern that still works. If you want to be slightly deep, then 49 is your best option.
What did I win???
I just went back and looked at both patterns. The 52 is the best non-deep pattern. The 49 is the best "deep" pattern that still works. If you want to be slightly deep, then 49 is your best option.
Thanks Mike. I'm leaning toward the 49.
So, no love for my way of picking the best setup? I'm surprised - it seemed like a sound way to evaluate the patterns.
Seriously, though, the thoroughness of every gear set-up posted on this forum is very impressive! I doubt that most gearing shops spend half the time y'all do on their customer's gears...
Seriously, though, the thoroughness of every gear set-up posted on this forum is very impressive! I doubt that most gearing shops spend half the time y'all do on their customer's gears...
gasiorv
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They would never make any money if they did.
Nice, my eycrometer is not that far off lol. That's why I asked about the 49/7 backlash. Not that it matters but that's the pattern I would run.
One more silly question, are you installing the side adjuster retaining clips and backing them off in a "locked" position when checking backlash? I am always concerned that under pressure the 14 bolt side adjusting nuts are going to try and loosen up. I have never spent the time to check them when I do an initial teardown. Doh.
One more silly question, are you installing the side adjuster retaining clips and backing them off in a "locked" position when checking backlash? I am always concerned that under pressure the 14 bolt side adjusting nuts are going to try and loosen up. I have never spent the time to check them when I do an initial teardown. Doh.
Interesting thought, Flux.
I don't install the retaining clips when doing the setup. But I am very careful to locate the adjusters in the position where the clips can be installed. When properly installed - at least on mine - the clips actually press onto the rounded ends of the adjustment slots, and keep the adjusters from moving at all.
That said, if I somehow positioned the clips to be centered in the slot, there could be a little movement. My guess is that this would allow the adjusters to move about 1/10 of the movement of moving an entire slot.
To validate my preload, I've mic'd how far the adjusters move when adjusting one slot. It's 4 thou. So at most, if the adjuster were to move the entire length of that freeplay, it would move less than a half a thou.
That said, on the ARB the preload spec is 15 thou - or a little over 3 slots. That is actually a lot of pressure on the adjusters, and I think it's unlikely that they would move given that much pressure against the carrier bearings. Certainly possible, but as I said above the movement allowed would not be consequential.
That does bring up an interesting thing about setting backlash on the 14 bolt. It is not infinitely adjustable as you might think, as you always have to position the adjusters where the retaining clips can be installed. Once the preload is set at the very beginning of the setup, you adjust backlash by moving both adjusters in the same direction one full slot at a time. This is how you maintain the preload once set, and always results in moving the carrier 4 thou in one direction or the other.
That is why the backlash numbers on my labels move around a good bit with each different pinion depth. Backlash spec on the 14 bolt is 3-12 thou. For my setup I want to be tight, and target as close to about 4 thou as I can. That is the reason my backlash numbers go from around 4-5 to around 6-7. If I adjust the pinion depth and get a backlash of 6-7 I can't go any tighter because one slot tighter on the adjusters would take me down to 2-3 backlash. It's not a 1 to 1 corolation, but it's close.
Anyhow, a nice thought exercise as I'm sitting here drinking my coffee. Now I'm off to button this thing up. Should be back on the road today.
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I'm curious about the backlash on these. Why do you want that to be on the tight side so much?
If you're pinion depth is 3 thou deep, and the backlash is really tight, it doesn't give the gears a whole lot of room to mesh. In a racing application I might understand. Not so much for this. Is it a 14b thing specifically?
I'm just thinking about the noise and grinding feel you had.
Not apples to apples but Carl from Jantz likes to setup his gears in the 5 thousand range. He says to break them in slowly. But with big tires and HP he feels it works better.