All in the name of science

Fargo said:
I'll try to do that as time gets a little closer and everything is confirmed. This year its kind of a chaotic trip for us. We have a Jeeping friend from MN who is helping his dad build a house near Cotipaxi (west of Pueblo). So things are a little uncertain depending on how things are going for him. But we expect to be down there in the middle of July. Its a different part of the state than I have visited before. So we might check out the sand dunes and things in that area before we go over to the more familiar trails of the San Juans.

I'll send a PM when we get a little closer to the time. Maybe we can find a trail closer to you and get in a day together on my way in or out of CO. Unless you know of some good trails in the Cotopaxi or Salida area we should check out. We'll have to be in touch to see how far you want to drive.
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We often drive a ways to get somewhere interesting. Cotopaxi is a neat area that feels less traveled.
 
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jjvw said:
#1) I have been daily driving my TJ for almost 8 years starting from stock to whatever it is now. For the first many months of the mid arm that was the only change from the prior setup. It didn't change how I drove. I was still doing 75mph on the highway the same as I did before. About a year later came the rear outboard with an early AllTech tune. That was the single most significant change and improvement in how the Jeep handled.

A few years later came the Swayloc to replace the Antirock. That was a noticable improvement as well, but not at much as the rear shocks created.

Then I was able to get an updated version of the rear shock tune which was as dramatic as the initial outboard was; followed by installing the front shocks with a matching tune. That was as dramatic a change as all previous shock work I had done. This experience with shocks is why I am such a believer in shocks. No other change I have done has improved the Jeep across the board as the shocks have.

#2) I understand what the Nth style geo correction does. I also know what certain selling points of it are solutions to non-problems. I have also seen how it behaves on the trail. The only improvement it provides that I can believe in is the increased roll center. However, I am deeply suspicious of the significance of this improvement given how often people are already raising their rear track bar brackets later in their builds and never comment about the raised roll center. Then we have companies like Metalcloak who have all kinds of marketing BS about improving the ride, yet one of the features of their rear track bar is not needing to use a raised axle bracket. Yet how often do we read complaints about a low roll center. I do believe the increased RC is an improvement. I do not believe it is anything that a good shock can't also achieve through it's normal movement control.

This is why I strongly believe that an Nth style GC is misplaced effort. And it is not a small amount of effort. Good shocks will address the very things that GC actually does and then some. We already know that GC hops off road. So when the desire to fix that behavior becomes important, then for a bit more effort fix it with something we know can actually do it.

As I have said in all similar discussions, the real issue at hand is the money.
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This is why I have put any other possible suspension changes on hold until shocks and a swayloc have been installed. Then after that I will evaluate what needs attention.
 
Fargo said:
I'll try to do that as time gets a little closer and everything is confirmed. This year its kind of a chaotic trip for us. We have a Jeeping friend from MN who is helping his dad build a house near Cotipaxi (west of Pueblo). So things are a little uncertain depending on how things are going for him. But we expect to be down there in the middle of July. Its a different part of the state than I have visited before. So we might check out the sand dunes and things in that area before we go over to the more familiar trails of the San Juans.

I'll send a PM when we get a little closer to the time. Maybe we can find a trail closer to you and get in a day together on my way in or out of CO. Unless you know of some good trails in the Cotopaxi or Salida area we should check out. We'll have to be in touch to see how far you want to drive.
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There’s a good bit near Salida!
 
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I've spent the last couple months trying to open my mind, and my pocket book, to experiment with new things. When my Jeep was put away last fall I had 2" OME springs and Bilstein 8 inch travel shocks, biased toward uptravel (5/3). This winter, I did a LOT to the jeep. I was convinced last year that I needed Geo correction. I bought a set of brackets, but David took so long to get them to me (3'ish months) that I didn't have time to install them before a wheeling trip I had been planning. I needed new spring perches (because michigan rusty) so I took the opportunity to relocate them. I installed a Savvy Gas tank skid and that required me to change my rear trackbar axle mount due to interference. Also significant to this discussion is I wanted some longer travel shocks, so I installed a 3/4" spacer on the 2" springs and bolted in the "forum favorite" Rancho 5000x shocks. The short story is that I didn't like the shocks...and worse, didn't like driving the jeep. I wasn't sure which of the changes I made was causing the terrible ride I had. What was terrible? Well, the rear end didn't seem to follow the front end over bumps. It was pretty bad to drive, felt like I was going all over the road. It couldn't be the shocks...everyone said they were great. I was worried about a minor modification I made to my rear track bar mount or that maybe I managed to screw something up when I relocated my rear upper spring perch.

I went wheeling with the Jeep because I didn't have time to fix it. When I got home, it was still terrible. A friend of mine mentioned it too (after pressing him, because he's too nice a guy). I had to do something...Maybe the shocks needed more lift? I had a set of the Rancho 3" springs from summit racing...I was hell bent on installing them, until the reports came back that they gave about 4" of lift. So, I left em in the box and tried to sell them. They didn't sell, and I was in a mood to experiment. So, in go the new springs. Jeep drove EXACTLY the same as it did before. Aside from being a bigger step to get in...it was identical. So...the springs didn't affect how the shock operates or the ride quality and characteristics.

About the same time, KYB monomax was #trending so I thought I'd be a forum guinea pig. I bought a set for 4" of lift (they only make stock and 4" lifted lengths) and bolted them in. They rode WAY different. Like, it was a different jeep. The rear end quirks were gone. That was a good thing. However, they are STIFF. Like, the whole jeep moved up and down on the smallest of bumps. If I didn't know better, I'd have thought someone put a steel bar in to replace the shocks. They have so much nitrogen charge that when I had the springs out to check bumps, raising the axle with the jack was raising the body too. Then the weight would compress the shock, so the tub was raising and lowering on each pump of the shock. Now, I'm 400+ dollars into a shock experiment and still not happy. What's a guy to do? Well, keep spending money, I guess. That's what I did. Tried out another trending shock, the BlackMax from Skyjacker.

The black maxes have made my Jeep fun to drive again. They aren't perfect. Far from it. But...I feel like I'm in control again. My modifications had NOTHING to do with the poor ride I initially experienced. Everything I've experienced in ride changes have come from the shocks.

So, what's the point of this big long story? Geo doesn't mean as much as some would have you believe. I'm not saying geometery not important. Please do not misconstrue. But...I will say, when I was on my 2" lift and bilsteins, I could lift my front inner tire on a LH turn (we've all seen the video). I have an anti-rock, and it was set on its lightest setting. When I was troubleshooting the rancho issue, I played around with the anti-rock to hopefully control some of the sway. I put it in the middle setting on both arms. It helped...some, but not all. As I've changed shocks without changing anything else, I've noticed a lot of different things...and one of them is that my jeep is much more level through the turns now vs last fall.. Even the ranchos, that I hated, were more level in turns before I adjusted the Anti-Rock. I didn't raise my roll center. In fact, my roll center is now further away from the CofG, due to the higher lift. If anything, I should be getting MORE roll. The only thing I can determine is that my Bilsteins were SHOT and my new shocks are controlling the roll much better.

I'm a firm believer now that with some help from Blaine and others, I can build a short arm jeep that will do everything I ever ask of it without any extra geometry correction...and if it doesn't a mid-arm is only a phone call away. I'm also starting to see how important shocks are to both vehicular control and to ride characteristics. I mean, I knew it before...as a mechanical engineer, I know about damping and oscillation, spring rates, blah, blah, blah. I studied it ad nauseam in college. However, knowing the theory and then actually seeing (and feeling) the application of that theory is something else entirely.

For anyone interested in this topic, I'd encourage you to try some different things out. Find a loop you can drive that is low traffic and consistent. Buy some busted ass hoopty shocks off marketplace. Exploit Amazon's generous return policy (Thank goodness that exists, else I'd be halfway to owning a full set of custom tuned foxes, but be stuck with Skyjackers). Take a jeep for a drive WITHOUT shocks (carefully and safely). See what happens. Pay attention to what changes and what doesn't. After all, its for science!
 
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Fargo said:
1) My first point of confusion is at highway driving. I live in the flat lands of ND and I drive my Jeep at 80 mph 1000 miles each way to Colorado every couple of years to do trail riding. So my needs are obviously different than others. How would you compare your mid arms performance in a high speed emergency lane menever to a similarly lifted TJ with stock arm locations but maybe a raised rear trackbar bracket. How do you think geometry brackets would compare in Interstate driving. I get the impression from comments above that the Savvy mid arm is stable at interstate speeds, but I would still love to hear your opinion.
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I can give a little insight on this I think. I've had the mid arm for maybe 50,000+ plus miles, I forget exactly. Most of which has been pavement or go fast type of wheeling. By most people's definition I probably drive like an asshole, by mine I've probably had a few too many rides in buggies and race cars.

I've got 13" shocks in the front and 12" in the rear, no rear sway bar and a front antirock on the lowest setting. My shocks definitely don't do as much as they could to help with body roll, not on purpose, just due to ignorance.

I've had my fair share of panic stops, high speed lane changes and the variety of maneuvers necessary due to other idiots on the road. But, I have 100% confidence in how my Jeep is going to act every time I have to do such a thing. There are zero weird quirks, or surprises to deal with. I drive it hard, I can pull hard 90* corners at fast enough speeds to lift two tires off the ground and have very little fear of something going wrong. Heck I just did that yesterday and smelt burning rubber for a few hundred feet after the corner.

My point being, drive it like ya stole it, and that if you have any thoughts of the mid arm making your jeep less safe or predictable to drive, to go ahead and wipe those from your brain. Any problems you might encounter aren't due to the mid arm, more likely some type of user error.

And yes, I know this post means I'll be rolling my Jeep over tomorrow in a crash that rivals Talladega Nights
 
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Trevlaw said:
I can give a little insight on this I think. I've had the mid arm for maybe 50,000+ plus miles, I forget exactly. Most of which has been pavement or go fast type of wheeling. By most people's definition I probably drive like an asshole, by mine I've probably had a few too many rides in buggies and race cars.

I've got 13" shocks in the front and 12" in the rear, no rear sway bar and a front antirock on the lowest setting. My shocks definitely don't do as much as they could to help with body roll, not on purpose, just due to ignorance.

I've had my fair share of panic stops, high speed lane changes and the variety of maneuvers necessary due to other idiots on the road. But, I have 100% confidence in how my Jeep is going to act every time I have to do such a thing. There are zero weird quirks, or surprises to deal with. I drive it hard, I can pull hard 90* corners at fast enough speeds to lift two tires off the ground and have very little fear of something going wrong. Heck I just did that yesterday and smelt burning rubber for a few hundred feet after the corner.

My point being, drive it like ya stole it, and that if you have any thoughts of the mid arm making your jeep less safe or predictable to drive, to go ahead and wipe those from your brain. Any problems you might encounter aren't due to the mid arm, more likely some type of user error.

And yes, I know this post means I'll be rolling my Jeep over tomorrow in a crash that rivals Talladega Nights
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And this gets a thumbs up? fricking pathetic.

Trev....newsflash bud, you are the idiot on the road.

I read on here one time where someone used to drive like an asshole on their commute to work, constant lane changes and passing. Then one day they decided to just go with the flow and stop the drama. Added 1 minute to their commute.

Mythbusters had an episode on traffic density, all it takes is a tap of the brakes to slow the whole mob down. Then comes along Trevlaw playing formula one with their POS TJ, causing someone to ikely need to tap the brakes or worse.

I haul grain loaded to 80K pounds down I65. The shear stupidity of people on the road and around semis astounds me. I don't want to kill anyone but goddamn people drive with a death wish.
 
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Farmergreg said:
And this gets a thumbs up? fricking pathetic.

Trev....newsflash bud, you are the idiot on the road.

I read on here one time where someone used to drive like an asshole on their commute to work, constant lane changes and passing. Then one day they decided to just go with the flow and stop the drama. Added 1 minute to their commute.

Mythbusters had an episode on traffic density, all it takes is a tap of the brakes to slow the whole mob down. Then comes along Trevlaw playing formula one with their POS TJ, causing someone to ikely need to tap the brakes or worse.

I haul grain loaded to 80K pounds down I65. The shear stupidity of people on the road and around semis astounds me. I don't want to kill anyone but goddamn people drive with a death wish.
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Lol, my TJ has a max speed of 65mph, I get passed by semi's on the highway. I think you missed the point
 
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Farmergreg said:
And this gets a thumbs up? fricking pathetic.

Trev....newsflash bud, you are the idiot on the road.

I read on here one time where someone used to drive like an asshole on their commute to work, constant lane changes and passing. Then one day they decided to just go with the flow and stop the drama. Added 1 minute to their commute.

Mythbusters had an episode on traffic density, all it takes is a tap of the brakes to slow the whole mob down. Then comes along Trevlaw playing formula one with their POS TJ, causing someone to ikely need to tap the brakes or worse.

I haul grain loaded to 80K pounds down I65. The shear stupidity of people on the road and around semis astounds me. I don't want to kill anyone but goddamn people drive with a death wish.
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He's young. I'll give him a break.
 
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