All in the name of science

I think the lack of traction in the east is more forgiving of geometry than areas with dry grippy rocks. You have to have traction to have wheel hop. I hope to see in July.
 
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Kevin Q said:
As I am watching the video I am thinking...How different would this be in the Northeast? First, add trees just a little wider than your Jeep. Next, add humidity, mud, and slick rocks that roll.
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Speaking of rocks that roll, I had a guy behind me complaining about me moving rocks at every stop. I let him in front of me and then he complained about that guy. He did figure it out after that.
 
Brianj5600 said:
It is interesting, but to me it is just muddying the water.
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Why muddy? There are a few basics to keep in mind but here are two that seem to garner the most discussion:

Antisquat (more importantly instant center location) and traction have a symbiotic relationship. The higher the AS the more the chassis is being forced away from the axle under torque. But Newton reminds you that force lifting the chassis is also pushing the axle (and more importantly the tire) down. Once you grasp that you can then begin to understand what is going on. So in areas of higher traction a lower AS is beneficial as it decreases the chassis loading the tire lessening the tendency to hop. But in areas of lower traction a higher AS could help by helping the tire find some bite but once you find traction you are back at the chance that you could hop. It is all a tradeoff.

Roll center. The higher the roll center the more force it takes for the chassis to roll. This is where all the talk about shocks and swaybars start coming into play. A track bar mounted as high as practical raises the roll center and to some extent lessens the dependency on shocks and sway bars to control chassis roll. The Savvy Mid Arm has less axle constraint (number of points attaching the axle to the chassis) and a lower roll center. So because of this you need to rely more on the shocks and sway bars to control chassis roll. Again it is all a tradeoff.
 
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jjvw said:
You referenced what was happening in the video and this is a thread about the differences in suspension geometry.
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And no, thanks t was a reply to our friend in PA that compared terrain, remember, mud, trees and slick rocks. He nor I mentioned anything about geometry.
If you want MY opinion on that video, the proper driver makes all the difference. Driver, driver driver. I’ve made obstacles with a stock Yj on KO2’s that a fellow I know winches over every time with his Ox lockers, dana 60’s and 37” Pit Bulls. ✌🏼
 
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Brianj5600 said:
I think the lack of traction in the east is more forgiving of geometry than areas with dry grippy rocks. You have to have traction to have wheel hop. I hope to see in July.
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throw some good ole TN/NC/VA/KY mud on those rocks and you will have party!
 
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@Blackjack I think we are on the same page. Heck I believe our rear suspensions are very close in design.

The last sentence of that quote does make you think, but about what? Calling into question the overall benefit with out any real experience is not responsible. A paragraph or even a sentence after that would be most helpful. Otherwise you are muddying the water.

No one in the world would build from scratch a 4" short arm with TJ mounting points. In my opinion a 4" suspension lift has total system imbalance and getting the rear to behave better is a step in the right direction.

In the quote below I could have said high AS instead of geometry. I should take more time and be more clear. Cliff Notes leave out a lot and don't always get the point across.

Brianj5600 said:
I think the lack of traction in the east is more forgiving of geometry than areas with dry grippy rocks. You have to have traction to have wheel hop. I hope to see in July.
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Disclaimer: Geo Correction will not fix all your suspension quirks. I have been happy with what improvements I was looking for. If you are happy with your Jeep leave it alone. Geo Correction will not and can not replace a well designed suspension with longer links.
 
Blackjack said:
The Savvy Mid Arm has less axle constraint (number of points attaching the axle to the chassis) and a lower roll center. So because of this you need to rely more on the shocks and sway bars to control chassis roll. Again it is all a tradeoff.
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I won't repeat or belabor this again but that crap really needs to be addressed. When we built the mid arm with Savvy, we tested it on a rig we both knew well. We installed the front first with NO other changes, none, not a different bolt, spring, shock, or bit of cargo in the back. On road, off road, whatever we did and tested on, there was no discernible difference in how it rode, drove or handled and this was with some bullshit shocks in the stock location with a stock rear sway bar and an AR front.

Zero change.

Then we moved to the rear and did that end, again with the same parameters, NO OTHER CHANGES. Doing the same testing and test driving again, if you were acutely in tune with the rig based on many thousands of miles of driving it and being one of the sort that recognizes small differences, you would pick up on the fact that there was a very slight increase in body roll. The average person on a before and after test drive would not pick up on it.

I'm a bit weary of the "much looser handling bullshit" and the reliance on shocks and swaybars bullshit because that's what it is, bullshit. You are going to run shocks anyway, right? So run some shocks and stop with the crap already.

Lots of folks make it sound like there is geometry out there that will let you drive without shocks, it doesn't exist.
 
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mrblaine said:
I won't repeat or belabor this again but that crap really needs to be addressed. When we built the mid arm with Savvy, we tested it on a rig we both knew well. We installed the front first with NO other changes, none, not a different bolt, spring, shock, or bit of cargo in the back. On road, off road, whatever we did and tested on, there was no discernible difference in how it rode, drove or handled and this was with some bullshit shocks in the stock location with a stock rear sway bar and an AR front.

Zero change.

Then we moved to the rear and did that end, again with the same parameters, NO OTHER CHANGES. Doing the same testing and test driving again, if you were acutely in tune with the rig based on many thousands of miles of driving it and being one of the sort that recognizes small differences, you would pick up on the fact that there was a very slight increase in body roll. The average person on a before and after test drive would not pick up on it.

I'm a bit weary of the "much looser handling bullshit" and the reliance on shocks and swaybars bullshit because that's what it is, bullshit. You are going to run shocks anyway, right? So run some shocks and stop with the crap already.

Lots of folks make it sound like there is geometry out there that will let you drive without shocks, it doesn't exist.
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Good morning Quail Valley 💥
 
mrblaine said:
I won't repeat or belabor this again but that crap really needs to be addressed. When we built the mid arm with Savvy, we tested it on a rig we both knew well. We installed the front first with NO other changes, none, not a different bolt, spring, shock, or bit of cargo in the back. On road, off road, whatever we did and tested on, there was no discernible difference in how it rode, drove or handled and this was with some bullshit shocks in the stock location with a stock rear sway bar and an AR front.

Zero change.

Then we moved to the rear and did that end, again with the same parameters, NO OTHER CHANGES. Doing the same testing and test driving again, if you were acutely in tune with the rig based on many thousands of miles of driving it and being one of the sort that recognizes small differences, you would pick up on the fact that there was a very slight increase in body roll. The average person on a before and after test drive would not pick up on it.

I'm a bit weary of the "much looser handling bullshit" and the reliance on shocks and swaybars bullshit because that's what it is, bullshit. You are going to run shocks anyway, right? So run some shocks and stop with the crap already.

Lots of folks make it sound like there is geometry out there that will let you drive without shocks, it doesn't exist.
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I want to climb volcanoes and feel like I’m riding on a cloud. All while fueled with unicorn piss and pixie dust.
 
Gollywomper said:
I want to climb volcanoes and feel like I’m riding on a cloud. ...
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Have you ever driven a new JLUR? Yeah, its kinda like that. OK thats a bit of a stretch, but compared to my LJ, my buddies JL is pretty plush He currently has it stored at my house and every time I drive it I am blown away by how well a stock JLUR on 35's works. It is just super smooth and controlled.

Sorry, back to topic...
 
Wildman said:
I don't know that I agree with that but I get what you are saying. And yes there might be the rare time putting someone on ignore is needed but I also think many times that maybe if people would talk offline or PM they could work out some of these issues.

I just feel that the internet has made it so easy to forget social graces sometimes and since you can't hear inflections in a spoken comment that. Time when someone might have been being sarcastic or a off humor pun but it gets taken wrong. And as we all know then things can escalate to the point where then heated words are said.

It's never going to be perfect and there are always going to be those who irritate us. If you met them in real life and they rubbed you the wrong way you'd limited your interaction with them. Unless it was a SERIOUS dislike and then fist might be thrown.
I had to work and live around a lot of people I wouldn't have ever considered going to the bar for a beer with but I also know that I had to look past that get the job done.
I realize this isn't the SAME situation but we're all here because we all have a common interest. So I get confused why we can't set aside feelings that get in the way of that. And I ain't in anyway saying I am perfect as I get wrapped up in my own feelings and make comments sometimes that were not warranted of that came across in a wrong way. And times when I'm getting heated I try to step back and look at what was said on both sides. Maybe I'm the one who came across as arrogantly or condescending which might have triggered the reply.

So after all that long winded nothing as with everything it's a free country so if you want to ignore someone do so. What I find sad about this is that now those two people might be missing out on some important or pertinent information that could be helpful to either party at some point.



Maybe but I choose to just use the scroll feature and roll past comments I don't want to read. But to each their own.
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This made way to much sense and I agree. So now I must ignore you : )
 
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mrblaine said:
I won't repeat or belabor this again but that crap really needs to be addressed. When we built the mid arm with Savvy, we tested it on a rig we both knew well. We installed the front first with NO other changes, none, not a different bolt, spring, shock, or bit of cargo in the back. On road, off road, whatever we did and tested on, there was no discernible difference in how it rode, drove or handled and this was with some bullshit shocks in the stock location with a stock rear sway bar and an AR front.

Zero change.

Then we moved to the rear and did that end, again with the same parameters, NO OTHER CHANGES. Doing the same testing and test driving again, if you were acutely in tune with the rig based on many thousands of miles of driving it and being one of the sort that recognizes small differences, you would pick up on the fact that there was a very slight increase in body roll. The average person on a before and after test drive would not pick up on it.

I'm a bit weary of the "much looser handling bullshit" and the reliance on shocks and swaybars bullshit because that's what it is, bullshit. You are going to run shocks anyway, right? So run some shocks and stop with the crap already.

Lots of folks make it sound like there is geometry out there that will let you drive without shocks, it doesn't exist.
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Reading this again, I see that I left out one highly relevant bit of info. I do not make a single dime off of the sale of the mid arm that Savvy sells. Whether you buy it and install or don't affects me in no positive or negative way whatsoever. In other words, I have nothing for sale when it comes to the mid arm and how it works.
 
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mrblaine said:
I won't repeat or belabor this again but that crap really needs to be addressed. When we built the mid arm with Savvy, we tested it on a rig we both knew well. We installed the front first with NO other changes, none, not a different bolt, spring, shock, or bit of cargo in the back. On road, off road, whatever we did and tested on, there was no discernible difference in how it rode, drove or handled and this was with some bullshit shocks in the stock location with a stock rear sway bar and an AR front.

Zero change.

Then we moved to the rear and did that end, again with the same parameters, NO OTHER CHANGES. Doing the same testing and test driving again, if you were acutely in tune with the rig based on many thousands of miles of driving it and being one of the sort that recognizes small differences, you would pick up on the fact that there was a very slight increase in body roll. The average person on a before and after test drive would not pick up on it.

I'm a bit weary of the "much looser handling bullshit" and the reliance on shocks and swaybars bullshit because that's what it is, bullshit. You are going to run shocks anyway, right? So run some shocks and stop with the crap already.

Lots of folks make it sound like there is geometry out there that will let you drive without shocks, it doesn't exist.
Click to expand...
Well that is interesting as I recall a conversation you and I had on this forum about the difference in body roll between a having a high mounted track bar and triangulated four link and you said that you just adjust the sway bar size and shock tuning and be done with it. If I am missing something from that you will have to forgive me.

You will notice I did not use the term "looser". I chose what I said carefully as looser implies that there is potentially something wrong. The number and type of points connecting the axle to the chassis has an effect of how the axle forces are transmitted through the chassis nothing more nothing less. If those forces are not being controlled by the control arms (track bar included), and springs then they have to be controlled by something else.

I have never said that there is any geometry out there that allows the absence of shocks or sway bars for that matter. I just believe you should make whatever adjustments you can to adjust the geometry to move the needle in the right direction before you throw shocks at it.
 
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