Death Wobble Question

[taylormade73]

Even more curious now. I was able to push the JJ back into the housing by hand. Really scratching my head. Before I continyr to resemble everything, I need @mrblaine to confirm whether this should be possible: removing snap ring without compressing the washer and being able to push the JJ back into the housing by hand.

 

[Wildman]

Fingers crossed that this is the issue and you can get it figured out and fixed. A ton of work no one wants to have after installing NEW parts onto your rig. But you are getting it done.

 

[mrblaine]

Even more curious now. I was able to push the JJ back into the housing by hand. Really scratching my head. Before I continyr to resemble everything, I need @mrblaine to confirm whether this should be possible: removing snap ring without compressing the washer and being able to push the JJ back into the housing by hand.

View attachment 177938

Depends, but if they are lined up squarely, sometimes we can push the races back in most of the way, rarely though. The washers should fix that.

 

[mrblaine]

So, just for the rest of the class...Why would there not be any preload on those joints? Is something screwed up in the housing? Did they get too hot (like from welding) and the poly bushing deformed? Would a new set of bushings fix the issue as well?

I've been thinking about adding the JJ bushings to my front axle, but maybe I'll just run with the replacement factory bushings I installed...

Historically there has been a lot of preload since that is how they work. Not sure what is going on with these but they are very abnormal.

 

[mrblaine]

Even more curious now. I was able to push the JJ back into the housing by hand. Really scratching my head. Before I continyr to resemble everything, I need @mrblaine to confirm whether this should be possible: removing snap ring without compressing the washer and being able to push the JJ back into the housing by hand.

View attachment 177938

Missed the part about being able to remove the snap ring without compressing the washer. That has never been possible on any I've worked on even the ones I've fixed that got welded with the races still in the barrel.

 

[taylormade73]

Missed the part about being able to remove the snap ring without compressing the washer. That has never been possible on any I've worked on even the ones I've fixed that got welded with the races still in the barrel.

Should I still reassemble and see what happens? Or talk to the builder of the axle since they are under warranty?

 

[mrblaine]

Should I still reassemble and see what happens? Or talk to the builder of the axle since they are under warranty?

Reassemble. What do you have to gain by not doing so? If you get enough compression on the races that the DW is held at bay, then you have an exact position to relate your troubles from and an exact scenario and solution that you have direct experience with.

The conversation will go something along these lines. Hey Carbon, my upper JJs are shit. Really? We've never heard of that, let us check with the builder. Yep, they say they've never heard of it either, you must have something else going on since this is a brand new axle.

Well, that would be true except I have done thus and either A, solved the problem or B, it still sucks.

I would like to have A in my pocket for that conversation.

 

[Lou]

I have many extra races and I even have atleast 1 extra barrel that presses into the pumpkin. All used but good, PM me if your interested... I’ve never been able to get the snap ring out without compressing the joint before either.

 

[taylormade73]

Ok. So put it back together with the shims. It is better but not gone. I don't have to stop now, just let off the gas and it goes away. The lesser bumps don't cause it anymore either.

With the 5/8" toe out it was almost eliminated. The proper toe in with intentional upper control bind it was luke it is now, controllable by letting off the gas.

The JJs are way too loose with little to no preload except what I out on them with the shims. We'll see what Carbon says now.

 

[mrblaine]

Ok. So put it back together with the shims. It is better but not gone. I don't have to stop now, just let off the gas and it goes away. The lesser bumps don't cause it anymore either.

With the 5/8" toe out it was almost eliminated. The proper toe in with intentional upper control bind it was luke it is now, controllable by letting off the gas.

The JJs are way too loose with little to no preload except what I out on them with the shims. We'll see what Carbon says now.

Add 1 more shim to each one and see what happens. That should kill it.

This is or can be educational for lots of folks. We know you have an upper control arm problem, but now you know why folks tell everyone that toe out solves DW. It doesn't but we use it as a test to diagnose bad upper control arms because the dry and power steering tests don't do anything to show they are bad or deficient.



Yet another example that knowledge does not equal understanding.

 

[mrblaine]

Ok. So put it back together with the shims. It is better but not gone. I don't have to stop now, just let off the gas and it goes away. The lesser bumps don't cause it anymore either.

With the 5/8" toe out it was almost eliminated. The proper toe in with intentional upper control bind it was luke it is now, controllable by letting off the gas.

The JJs are way too loose with little to no preload except what I out on them with the shims. We'll see what Carbon says now.

BTW- don't tell Ron or his kid how you came to do the test. They will dismiss most every thing you say as me shitting all over Carbon if you do.

 

[taylormade73]

Add 1 more shim to each one and see what happens. That should kill it.

This is or can be educational for lots of folks. We know you have an upper control arm problem, but now you know why folks tell everyone that toe out solves DW. It doesn't but we use it as a test to diagnose bad upper control arms because the dry and power steering tests don't do anything to show they are bad or deficient.



Yet another example that knowledge does not equal understanding.

I have definitely learned a lot in this process and have a better understanding of the relationship of the front end suspension components. Thank you for your guidance.

 

[mrblaine]

I have definitely learned a lot in this process and have a better understanding of the relationship of the front end suspension components. Thank you for your guidance.

You are welcome. I will say that this is fairly baffling as I very rarely see this but never on new where you could just remove the snap ring without squashing the washer in. On the lowers, I have them up in a shop press with lots of pressure and can barely get them out.

I suspect that there is an issue with Energy Suspension's molds starting to wear or a different formulation on the urethane exhibiting more shrinkage than typical.

 

[taylormade73]

You are welcome. I will say that this is fairly baffling as I very rarely see this but never on new where you could just remove the snap ring without squashing the washer in. On the lowers, I have them up in a shop press with lots of pressure and can barely get them out.

I suspect that there is an issue with Energy Suspension's molds starting to wear or a different formulation on the urethane exhibiting more shrinkage than typical.

They are shipping me new joints tomorrow to see if that cures the DW.

 

[taylormade73]

From Disciple/Carbon:

Evening Jason,

OK RockJock4x4 sent out a complete rebuild kit today for both upper joints on your axle including a new sleeve/bore for the driver side which can be pressed out (passenger side is welded). At least with the new driver side joint they are sending you, it is already assembled so you will know right away if it is different (looser/tighter) then what is installed now.

 

[taylormade73]

@mrblaine how do you press JJs in and out of upper CA housings driver's side where the JJ tool doesn't fit because of the proximity of the pumpkin?

 

[mrblaine]

@mrblaine how do you press JJs in and out of upper CA housings driver's side where the JJ tool doesn't fit because of the proximity of the pumpkin?

Cut a bevel on the sleeve to fit around the recessed area.

 

[taylormade73]

Cut a bevel on the sleeve to fit around the recessed area.

Fucking HP getting in the way. I don't think any amount of beveling the tool will help.

 

[mrblaine]

Fucking HP getting in the way. I don't think any amount of beveling the tool will help.

View attachment 181785

I would never press in a new barrel but that's me. You can get a solid drift on that one and drive it out with patience, fortitude, and a bit of maneuvering room. You also don't need much to get that out. The press out sleeve only has to be as long as the thickness of the cast mount. You're making it harder than it needs to be.

 

[taylormade73]

I would never press in a new barrel but that's me. You can get a solid drift on that one and drive it out with patience, fortitude, and a bit of maneuvering room. You also don't need much to get that out. The press out sleeve only has to be as long as the thickness of the cast mount. You're making it harder than it needs to be.

I wasn't planning on pressing in the new barrel. I took the old (new) JJ out and put in the new JJ Currie sent me. However, the tool I made to compress the joint to install/remove the snap ring is all buggered up now. I was using a long bolt, washer, and sleeve but the washer gets all bent and applies uneven compression on the JJ washer so the snap ring won't seat fully. I got lucky the last time when I reinstalled with the shims.

I wanted to try the new JJ without shims to see if the issue was the JJ. If not then I'll install shims. But I'm looking at a ton of removal and reinstall and was looking for a better way to remove and install the JJs.

Or am I better off just removing the entire JJ and barrel and installing the new joint and barrel they sent?