Happy Columbus Day

gg1 said:
The Indians are watching their 50” tv’s just like everyone else. I don’t think they would want to go back in time. They wouldn’t survive now that they can chill instead of fight each other.
CC crossed the Atlantic 4 times in the 1400’s. He was a bad ass and you needed to be tough to survive in a time that war and taking over was common. The 1400’s are not today’s lives.
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Kind of correct and all that still misses the point. And you are diminishing what was here before colonialism by suggesting that the Native Americans were only fighting each other. The history of the Americas is far more complex. Just like Europe, who also was not just only fighting each other. Though they did (and still do) a lot.
 
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jjvw said:
Kind of like Christmas and Easter, only less sacred (I think). You are simply upholding a tradition. And it is a tradition whose actual history doesn't really line up well with the popular understanding.

Frankly, the messiness of CC is far more interesting than the simple celebration of his alleged discovery.
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It's far more than a simple tradition. We celebrate not because we want a day off from work, but because of the greatest explorer the world has seen. We celebrate the undying spirit of man, and the desire to keep moving forward. Christopher Columbus is deeply intertwined in our heritage.

People cant except that fact, and start twisting things to fit their own narrative.
 
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jjvw said:
Kind of like Christmas and Easter, only less sacred (I think). You are simply upholding a tradition. And it is a tradition whose actual history doesn't really line up well with the popular understanding.

Frankly, the messiness of CC is far more interesting than the simple celebration of his alleged discovery.
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I agree. I didn't really "celebrate" Columbus Day. But I do respect a man that has the balls to take a journey like he did in that time.

As far as the colonialism and Native killer. So what? All land was taken from someone at some point and the ones who have it taken are generally not amused. You know who else killed Indians and took their land? Indians. You know who else took Indians as slaves? Indians. Does that make it right? Absolutely not.

I do think what the US government did by lying and putting them on reservations was one of the biggest black eyes in American history, but does that make me a hypocrite as long as I use American money?

Some discussions make people uncomfortable, but that's just life. It's how we learn about each other. Avoiding saying anything that could make someone uncomfortable just because... Well that's just a feeble mind.
 
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Tranz Zam said:
....

People cant except that fact, and start twisting things to fit their own narrative.
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Which is still missing the point that there are a dozen accompanying aspects to the Christopher Columbus story that are best not ignored if one cares to have any sense of the broader perspective. This includes the good and the bad. There is much to learn and appreciate from acknowledging both.
 
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jjvw said:
Which is still missing the point that there are a dozen accompanying aspects to the Christopher Columbus story that are best not ignored if one cares to have any sense of the broader perspective. This includes the good and the bad. There is much to learn and appreciate from acknowledging both.
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Totally agreed. Many great men have parts of their pasts we choose to ignore and patriotism is never an excuse for this. Many great presidents did the wrong things at some point. Personally, I'm not a "Republican" but I love talking to them about some of Ronald Reagan's fumbles. You would swear I farted in their breakfast!
 
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jjvw said:
Which is still missing the point that there are a dozen accompanying aspects to the Christopher Columbus story that are best not ignored if one cares to have any sense of the broader perspective. This includes the good and the bad. There is much to learn and appreciate from acknowledging both.
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You're free to believe whatever you want, but I'm not going to be shit on for celebrating the life of an extremely important man because it causes some people to have a bitch fit.
 
Tranz Zam said:
You're free to believe whatever you want, but I'm not going to be shit on for celebrating the life of an extremely important man because it causes some people to have a bitch fit.
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What beliefs of mine are you referring to? I believe CC was a complicated figure who changed the course of world history. Across the subsequent generations many benefitted and many suffered as a result. Is that wrong? His story is what it is. I will gladly study him, but I will not place him on a pedestal of sainthood.
 
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Tranz Zam said:
You're free to believe whatever you want, but I'm not going to be shit on for celebrating the life of an extremely important man because it causes some people to have a bitch fit.
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I don't think anyone is trying to shit on you. We must step outside of our comfort zone sometimes to gain knowledge. I wouldn't say that the world would have been better had CC never lived. In the past few years, I have found myself occasionally agreeing with Muslims, Palestinians, Republicans, Democrats, Jews, Mexicans etc. But when I disagree with any of those people, it's not because of tradition or heritage, it's the individual point that I disagree with. That doesn't mean I'm shitting on them.
 
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Imapepper said:
Would you feel different if you were a descendant of one of the 3 million people he is credited with killing?
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Credited with killing 3 million? Yeah well crediting someone with something and them being directly responsible for it are different things. Is every US president that served during wartime credited with every death in that war?

By that logic, how many deaths is Abraham Lincoln credited with?

How many deaths are credited to Dr MLK Jr?

I think you are using the same logic that you are arguing with, just on a different spectrum

I'll ask again, the American government could be credited with far more deaths. You ready to give up all your dollars? Stop saluting the flag? Not support the singing of the national anthem?
 
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Regardless of how many he had a direct hand in killing, CC did set in motion 500 years of Native Americans getting the short end of the stick over and over again. I can understand how they might still be a little bitter about how things went, even if my old Navajo buddies get to have nice big flat screen TVs as an indirect result of the Conquest.
 
jjvw said:
Regardless of how many he had a direct hand in killing, CC did set in motion 500 years of Native Americans getting the short end of the stick over and over again. I can understand how they might be a little bitter about how things went, even if my old Navajo buddies get to have nice big flat screen TVs.
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I agree, but greed and money and many others contributed to it also. I wouldn't credit him with discovering the world was round, no more than I would credit CC for setting it into motion. He was a pawn for his financers
 
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jjvw said:
Very good modern day comparison.
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Yup, one that goes way further back in history than a WWII resolution. I try my best to think of the larger picture without automatically taking sides. In my thirties, I made it a point to relearn everything my school history books taught me. It was awakening how many lies we were told in school, especially in the name of patriotism
 
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Tranz Zam said:
It's far more than a simple tradition. We celebrate not because we want a day off from work, but because of the greatest explorer the world has seen. We celebrate the undying spirit of man, and the desire to keep moving forward. Christopher Columbus is deeply intertwined in our heritage.

People cant except that fact, and start twisting things to fit their own narrative.
Click to expand...
Well stated. Some people love to go back in time with all we know today and pretend today is the 1400’s. Hilarious. He was a great explorer for his time. Lots of battles back then. You either were a winner or not. People starving wasn’t uncommon. If you are hungry you will have a will to survive and be a taker. Different times. Judging people back then isn’t so easy. We have so much luxury now I don’t think we can grasp those times.
I had a friend at work ask if I survived CC Day. Lol. Funny stuff.
I think people are being hypocritical regarding Columbus. We have tons of slave labor/child labor stuff. We invade for energy to drive our gas guzzlers. Let’s not be too high and mighty. We haven’t changed that much from CC’s time. We just take things in a more off hands manner.
I have some respect for CC for crossing the Atlantic 4 times in the 1400’s. Amazing. Look up how he navigated. Wow.
 
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I'm actually curious to know who these snowflakes are. Are they the ones who recognize the complexity of history or are they the ones who have trouble when their romantic bubbles of heroism get poked at.
 
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gg1 said:
Well stated. Snowflakes love to go back in time with all we know today and pretend today is the 1400’s. Hilarious. He was a great explorer for his time. Lots of battles back then. You either were a winner or not. People starving wasn’t uncommon. If you are hungry you will have a will to survive and be a taker. Different times. Judging people back then isn’t so easy. We have so much luxury now I don’t think we can grasp those times.
I had a friend at work ask if I survived CC Day. Lol. Funny stuff.
I think people are being hypocritical regarding Columbus. We have tons of slave labor/child labor stuff. We invade for energy to drive our gas guzzlers. Let’s not be too high and mighty. We haven’t changed that much from CC’s time. We just take things in a more off hands manner.
I have some respect for CC for crossing the Atlantic 4 times in the 1400’s. Amazing. Look up how he navigated. Wow.
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I think this forum is a wonderful place. Unlike most places online, we have had pages of this discussion and numerous people who disagree on certain facts and nobody is name calling. The general population has become so caught up in our differences, that we have failed to acknowledge our common ground. I don't agree with those that may think that CC day should be stricken from the calendar or have us refer to it as "indigenous people" day (see rant below.) CC day started a discussion of some pretty tough social points here among a small group of people. Indigenous people day doesn't sound like it would encourage anything except one group of people bashing another for things that were done to ancestors several generations ago, and that's no way to start a civil discussion. I also disagree with those who think this day should be spent screaming at others about oppression that they had no hand in. A calm discussion, however, can and will persuade others to listen to your point while taking you seriously, whether they agree with your beliefs or not.

Rant: By the definition of the word "indigenous," I (a southern, white, hetero-normative, sys-gendered male) am an indigenous person. I was born here and originated here naturally and my kind occurs here on a normal basis. When we try so hard not to use any words that offend a certain group of people, the pendulum eventually swings the other way and you start saying things that lose all meaning in language and thats why people are so fucking stupid confused these days. Case in point: because we cant call black people "black people," I witnessed a reporter call Usain Bolt an "African American" athlete. I spit my beer all over the table as I hysterically laughed. The dude is Jamaican, and last time I checked, Usain was neither African nor American.

I could go on. I watched the whole democratic presidential debate last night. But I will spare y'all.
 
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