Hub Conversion

[catbones2010]

So thinking of just saying screw it with trying to figure out why I'm getting vibrations after regear. Sure, I might be too low in gearing for 33s, but it was for 35s in the future. Had plenty of folks tell me I should go with 5.13s even with 33s when I stated I was thinking of doing 4.56. Long story short, I get vibes and no vibes like everyone else on my 2006 LJ with 2" lift and 33s, 5.13s now at 63-65 it all starts going nuts.

That said, few questions for those that did the conversion and I'm going to go with the 5x4.5 version or did, but whats your take on snow, hubs freezing, not being able to locked them, unlock them because of winter conditions etc. Let me know your experiences, please

Any other tips, benefits, etc.. to push me the other way away from hubs or more towards the conversion kit? Seems all the threads here are few years old but you guys loved them, the ones that got them but I'm up north east, so winter scares me that I might be stuck in locked or unlocked hub issue.

 

[MikeE024]

So thinking of just saying screw it with trying to figure out why I'm getting vibrations after regear. Sure, I might be too low in gearing for 33s, but it was for 35s in the future. Had plenty of folks tell me I should go with 5.13s even with 33s when I stated I was thinking of doing 4.56. Long story short, I get vibes and no vibes like everyone else on my 2006 LJ with 2" lift and 33s, 5.13s now at 63-65 it all starts going nuts.

That said, few questions for those that did the conversion and I'm going to go with the 5x4.5 version or did, but whats your take on snow, hubs freezing, not being able to locked them, unlock them because of winter conditions etc. Let me know your experiences, please

Any other tips, benefits, etc.. to push me the other way away from hubs or more towards the conversion kit? Seems all the threads here are few years old but you guys loved them, the ones that got them but I'm up north east, so winter scares me that I might be stuck in locked or unlocked hub issue.

I wouldn’t judge being geared too low by the presence of vibes.

Chris had vibes in his rig after the auto swap with 4.88s and that’s not low enough.

I would run 5.38s with 33s without a second thought since under revving is a bigger issue than over revving.

The hubs essentially allow you to turn the front end off while on the road. I had the large hub kit installed during the regear. It was a great investment as it allows me to dial in caster and not have vibes from the pinion angle or DS balancing issues.

I haven’t had any issues in freezing temps but I haven’t spend much time in a frigid climate. I wouldn’t fear it though since the Redline Cv-2 grease I went with is rated down to -100*F.

I highly recommend the Yukon kit for eliminating vibes, just know that the small kit (5x4.5”) widens the front track width by about 3/4”-1” on each side. The larger kit (5x5.5”) doesn’t widen the front track width, but you’d need to change wheels. Pick your poison.

 

[catbones2010]

I wouldn’t judge being geared too low by the presence of vibes.

Chris had vibes in his rig after the auto swap with 4.88s and that’s not low enough.

I would run 5.38s with 33s without a second thought since under revving is a bigger issue than over revving.

The hubs essentially allow you to turn the front end off while on the road. I had the large hub kit installed during the regear. It was a great investment as it allows me to dial in caster and not have vibes from the pinion angle or DS balancing issues.

I haven’t had any issues in freezing temps but I haven’t spend much time in a frigid climate. I wouldn’t fear it though since the Redline Cv-2 grease I went with is rated down -100*F.

I highly recommend the Yukon kit for eliminating vibes, just know that the small kit (5x4.5”) widens the front track width by about 3/4”-1” on each side. The larger kit (5x5.5”) doesn’t widen the front track width, but you’d need to change wheels. Pick your poison.

Thank you for that feedback, really appreciate it. You got a good point too on the gearing. Well I'm sort of in the middle of two things, go with hubs as the box is sitting next to me, obviously my stock wheels as seen in the avatar pic would have to go or I'd have to figure out a way to widen that opening to fit. I also currently have spacers which I don't think would work with hubs, not sure on that.

Second option I have is at the least get a front driveshaft, balanced, new cardan joint, ujoints, etc.. and see if my vibes go away but do I want to spend the $400 on that and find out I'm still got vibes. Pinion angle currently is 0.5 off and I got a bad shimmy as well past 55 since regearing. So not sure if lifting, dropping the axle for regear and then putting everything together changes the alignment and angles, not sure. Before regear, smooth as butter till about 80-90mph where things did start to rattle and shake also.

Anyways, where I'm at is I got a box of hubs sitting next to me because I was going to try figure it out with the driveshaft but the driveshaft might not be fixable even balanced with 5.13 gears I'm spinning that thing at 65mph around 3500rpms. I don't think I can sell a driveshaft to someone, if it doesn't work out either. lol.... ohh decisions, decisions.

 

[mrblaine]

Thank you for that feedback, really appreciate it. You got a good point too on the gearing. Well I'm sort of in the middle of two things, go with hubs as the box is sitting next to me, obviously my stock wheels as seen in the avatar pic would have to go or I'd have to figure out a way to widen that opening to fit. I also currently have spacers which I don't think would work with hubs, not sure on that.

Second option I have is at the least get a front driveshaft, balanced, new cardan joint, ujoints, etc.. and see if my vibes go away but do I want to spend the $400 on that and find out I'm still got vibes. Pinion angle currently is 0.5 off and I got a bad shimmy as well past 55 since regearing. So not sure if lifting, dropping the axle for regear and then putting everything together changes the alignment and angles, not sure. Before regear, smooth as butter till about 80-90mph where things did start to rattle and shake also.

Anyways, where I'm at is I got a box of hubs sitting next to me because I was going to try figure it out with the driveshaft but the driveshaft might not be fixable even balanced with 5.13 gears I'm spinning that thing at 65mph around 3500rpms. I don't think I can sell a driveshaft to someone, if it doesn't work out either. lol.... ohh decisions, decisions.

This is basic, it never changes and never will. Pull the front driveshaft. Dial in the rear to be vibe free at your favorite freeway speeds. Only after you do that do you swap the front back in and start adjusting it. Even if the driveshaft needs work, it will still need work because there will be times when you need to run 50mph + with the front hubs locked.

Only when you can't get good steering and or the front vibes dialed out do you go to hubs. The wheels aren't a major issue. Lots of folks on here have taken a hole saw to a few styles to get the hubs to fit. But, if you are looking at new wheels, it makes even less sense to not try to dial in the front to KNOW where you are.

 

[MikeE024]

Thank you for that feedback, really appreciate it. You got a good point too on the gearing. Well I'm sort of in the middle of two things, go with hubs as the box is sitting next to me, obviously my stock wheels as seen in the avatar pic would have to go or I'd have to figure out a way to widen that opening to fit. I also currently have spacers which I don't think would work with hubs, not sure on that.

I bought the small hub kit before Blaine educated me on the additional track width. I then purchased the large kit. Either way is fine if it works for you.

You may not need to run the spacers if you run the small hub kit. How thick are the spacers and are they installed rn simply for clearing the tire/wheel from inboard items?

Second option I have is at the least get a front driveshaft, balanced, new cardan joint, ujoints, etc.. and see if my vibes go away but do I want to spend the $400 on that and find out I'm still got vibes.

You could certainly go that route. I have a shimmy with the front end locked even with a new Tom Wood DS. But another guy in here, maybe @NOTNSUV iirc, went that route and avoided needing to do the kit. IMO he was fortunate since those balancers don’t appear to test up to the RPM range you’d be looking to stabilize in…this is info I’m just sharing from memory from reading his thread on the subject.

Pinion angle currently is 0.5 off and I got a bad shimmy as well past 55 since regearing. So not sure if lifting, dropping the axle for regear and then putting everything together changes the alignment and angles, not sure. Before regear, smooth as butter till about 80-90mph where things did start to rattle and shake also.

That’s pretty lame. I don’t care at all about my PA being off because my caster would need to be off in order to dial my PA in. The hub kit allows you to focus on caster. That’s a no brainer to me.

Anyways, where I'm at is I got a box of hubs sitting next to me because I was going to try figure it out with the driveshaft but the driveshaft might not be fixable even balanced with 5.13 gears I'm spinning that thing at 65mph around 3500rpms. I don't think I can sell a driveshaft to someone, if it doesn't work out either. lol.... ohh decisions, decisions.

 

[catbones2010]

This is basic, it never changes and never will. Pull the front driveshaft. Dial in the rear to be vibe free at your favorite freeway speeds. Only after you do that do you swap the front back in and start adjusting it. Even if the driveshaft needs work, it will still need work because there will be times when you need to run 50mph + with the front hubs locked.

Only when you can't get good steering and or the front vibes dialed out do you go to hubs. The wheels aren't a major issue. Lots of folks on here have taken a hole saw to a few styles to get the hubs to fit. But, if you are looking at new wheels, it makes even less sense to not try to dial in the front to KNOW where you are.

True, its just weird to me that with .5 difference between driveshaft and pinion angle I'm still getting vibes why I thought maybe the driveshaft is unabalanced or not balanced enough for 3500rpms and maybe even though I've rebuilt the cardan and all ujoints are new, maybe something is off. I'm also thinking that a shimmy in my steering wheel, when there was none before regearing would be driveshaft angle related, usualy its tires balance. However, tires were just taken off, not dropped or anything for them to lose their balance weight or balacing.

So your suggestion MrBlaine is to still continue to play more with the angles or get a new DS, make sure its balanced, built, and than work with angles? I

 

[catbones2010]

I bought the small hub kit before Blaine educated me on the additional track width. I then purchased the large kit. Either way is fine if it works for you.

You may not need to run the spacers if you run the small hub kit. How thick are the spacers and are they installed rn simply for clearing the tire/wheel from inboard items?



You could certainly go that route. I have a shimmy with the front end locked even with a new Tom Wood DS. But another guy in here, maybe @NOTNSUV iirc, went that route and avoided needing to do the kit. IMO he was fortunate since those balancers don’t appear to test up to the RPM range you’d be looking to stabilize in…this is info I’m just sharing from memory from reading his thread on the subject.



That’s pretty lame. I don’t care at all about my PA being off because my caster would need to be off in order to dial my PA in. The hub kit allows you to focus on caster. That’s a no brainer to me.

I've got a local guy that does driveshafts for racing and states he can balance it up to 10k rpms vs like Adams or Tom only doing it to 3200-3300rpms. I'm just worried, I'll dish out the $$ and I'm still stuck because the angles are messed up and with a 2" lift only, vs those that had this issue at 4" or more... I just don't get it. Some say its the CV angle on the front driveshaft but 2" lift is nothing much really compare to 4".

 

[MikeE024]

I've got a local guy that does driveshafts for racing and states he can balance it up to 10k rpms vs like Adams or Tom only doing it to 3200-3300rpms. I'm just worried, I'll dish out the $$ and I'm still stuck because the angles are messed up and with a 2" lift only, vs those that had this issue at 4" or more... I just don't get it. Some say its the CV angle on the front driveshaft but 2" lift is nothing much really compare to 4".

Have your confirmed that the vibe clears up when driving with your front DS removed?

If it drives clean, I’d consider taking the DS to your guy. Is it the stock DS or aftermarket? Maybe it’s just worn out and the new angle exposed the issue.

I’m just spitballing. I’d follow Blaine’s guidance bc he’s forgotten more than most of us will ever know.

 

[MikeE024]

True, its just weird to me that with .5 difference between driveshaft and pinion angle I'm still getting vibes why I thought maybe the driveshaft is unabalanced or not balanced enough for 3500rpms and maybe even though I've rebuilt the cardan and all ujoints are new, maybe something is off. I'm also thinking that a shimmy in my steering wheel, when there was none before regearing would be driveshaft angle related, usualy its tires balance. However, tires were just taken off, not dropped or anything for them to lose their balance weight or balacing.

So your suggestion MrBlaine is to still continue to play more with the angles or get a new DS, make sure its balanced, built, and than work with angles? I

I believe he’s saying to drop the front DS. Ensure your rear PA, DS, ujoints are good and you are vibration free. If it drives clean up to the speeds to desire then you are looking good in the rear.

Then do what you can to fix the front driveshaft issues (replace things that are broken/bent). That way you are still good for times when you are locked up front…in the event that go with a hub kit. You want to know where you stand on the parts that you have before going with the hub kit…bc those issue will still exist if you drive at faster speeds when locked.

In my case, the conversion was done by the guy who did my regear. Driving locked would still be problematic if there were problem with the front DS, ujoint, etc. that needed to be repaired or replaced.

Hopefully I didn’t butcher his message too much

 

[catbones2010]

Have your confirmed that the vibe clears up when driving with the front DS removed?

If it drives clean, I’d consider taking the DS to your guy. Is it the stock DS or aftermarket? Maybe it’s just worn out and the new angle exposed the issue.

I’m just spitballing. I’d follow Blaine’s guidance bc he’s forgotten more than most of us will even know.

Yes, treating him like Jeep God ... and yes, its still stock and thats why I'm not 100% jumping on the hub kit because if I remember correctly (had my reasons for doing so) I did go 80+ with the LJ and the vibes as I remembers and think about them now, sounded so the same. Which bring me to the idea that yes, front DS might be worn, might be not balance properly, the think is looking little rusty, and it has like 2 weights on one side, 1 weight on another, few other things on it... its not an old DS since the rig has only 63k on it but hey, things get old sometimes the wrong way. That was exactly my thought, maybe balance the old or maybe just go new route, cleaner DS. I guess I can always return or sell the hub kit faster then a DS as well.

To confirm, yes taking the front DS out, vibes or sound or whatever happens past 65 is gone.

Now I do have an appointment at a non-jeep shop (which I'm quite positive they dont have a clue about DS angles when doing alignment) but I'm hoping to check my tire balance to make sure that didnt change. I don't see how it would, but hey its not a perfect world. Maybe they did, I just didnt drive 65 anywhere since the weight fell off and I did regear it after. Appointment is for alignment to make sure caster is right and such since the shimmy is going on and last time I had that, Tires and Alignment was done to get rid of it. Waste of $$, maybe, but I don't have a computer for alignment and driveway is on an slight angle and digital gauge, well sometimes I get 0.5 difference, sometimes I get 2.0 difference between DS angle and PS. Driving me crazy lol so. I also can't find what the proper proceedure is and specs for caster since caster would deal with the shimmy I think more then DS angle, then if I'm too much toe, I might have a shimmy as well as the tires are fighting themselves, correct?

 

[catbones2010]

I believe he’s saying to drop the front DS. Ensure your rear PA, DS, ujoints are good and you are vibration free. If it drives clean up to the speeds to desire then you are looking good in the rear.

Then do what you can to fix the front driveshaft issues (replace things that are broken/bent). That way you are still good for times when you are locked up front…in the event that go with a hub kit. You want to know where you stand on the parts that you have before going with the hub kit…bc those issue will still exist if you drive at faster speeds when locked.

In my case, the conversion was done by the guy who did my regear. Driving locked would still be problematic if there were problem with the front DS, ujoint, etc. that needed to be repaired or replaced.

Hopefully I didn’t butcher his message too much

But unless something is wrong with the axle shaft ujoints or oem hubs, and wheels unbalanced, having the hub kit conversion would mean you eliminate front DS completely, its not there so being locked wouldn't spin the DS that vibes. Anyways, bottom line is right now as of current testing so far, front DS out and the vibes are gone. Rear DS out with front in, vibes gone but shimmy still there and that's probably my fault because I messed with caster last night. I wish I could figure out how much caster I need to go back to where it was and get rid of bit of the shimmy.

Actually, if I think about it, I tuned everything back per my markings before playing with the caster, but I also did lower the tire pressure by 2psi, maybe thats it.

Sorry, this DS, caster, angle crap always confused me no matter what tools I use no clear cut out there to google for lol..

 

[starkey480]

If the vibes are gone with the front driveshaft removed then you know at the very least that the hub kit will fix the issue if it comes to that. My recommendation is once you figure out that the front driveshaft is the issue, cover the basics like checking balance and joints on the front shaft. If those items are fine and vibes persist then I’d do the hub kit.

As for your caster I believe you want it around 7* which you can measure on the flat spot on the inner C

 

[MikeE024]

Yes, treating him like Jeep God ... and yes, its still stock and thats why I'm not 100% jumping on the hub kit because if I remember correctly (had my reasons for doing so) I did go 80+ with the LJ and the vibes as I remembers and think about them now, sounded so the same. Which bring me to the idea that yes, front DS might be worn, might be not balance properly, the think is looking little rusty, and it has like 2 weights on one side, 1 weight on another, few other things on it... its not an old DS since the rig has only 63k on it but hey, things get old sometimes the wrong way. That was exactly my thought, maybe balance the old or maybe just go new route, cleaner DS. I guess I can always return or sell the hub kit faster then a DS as well.

To confirm, yes taking the front DS out, vibes or sound or whatever happens past 65 is gone.

Now I do have an appointment at a non-jeep shop (which I'm quite positive they dont have a clue about DS angles when doing alignment) but I'm hoping to check my tire balance to make sure that didnt change. I don't see how it would, but hey its not a perfect world. Maybe they did, I just didnt drive 65 anywhere since the weight fell off and I did regear it after. Appointment is for alignment to make sure caster is right and such since the shimmy is going on and last time I had that, Tires and Alignment was done to get rid of it. Waste of $$, maybe, but I don't have a computer for alignment and driveway is on an slight angle and digital gauge, well sometimes I get 0.5 difference, sometimes I get 2.0 difference between DS angle and PS. Driving me crazy lol so. I also can't find what the proper proceedure is and specs for caster since caster would deal with the shimmy I think more then DS angle, then if I'm too much toe, I might have a shimmy as well as the tires are fighting themselves, correct?

If the vibe goes away with the front DS removed then I wouldn’t expect an alignment to help much, but I’m no expert.

 

[MikeE024]

Rear DS out with front in, vibes gone but shimmy still there and that's probably my fault because I messed with caster last night. I wish I could figure out how much caster I need to go back to where it was and get rid of bit of the shimmy.

Actually, if I think about it, I tuned everything back per my markings before playing with the caster, but I also did lower the tire pressure by 2psi, maybe thats it.

Sorry, this DS, caster, angle crap always confused me no matter what tools I use no clear cut out there to google for lol..

Ahh ok I didn’t know u messed with things. Try to not create additional issues during the diagnosis phase or your head might spin off. I have to tell myself the same thing sometimes…think things through the best u can. That’s how you’ll improve.

I can’t comment on adjusting caster with stock arms because I’ve never done it. But if you adjusted them, then I bet u can dial it in with a Klein digital angle finder…which costs about $22 at Home Depot.

 

[starkey480]

Yes, treating him like Jeep God ... and yes, its still stock and thats why I'm not 100% jumping on the hub kit because if I remember correctly (had my reasons for doing so) I did go 80+ with the LJ and the vibes as I remembers and think about them now, sounded so the same. Which bring me to the idea that yes, front DS might be worn, might be not balance properly, the think is looking little rusty, and it has like 2 weights on one side, 1 weight on another, few other things on it... its not an old DS since the rig has only 63k on it but hey, things get old sometimes the wrong way. That was exactly my thought, maybe balance the old or maybe just go new route, cleaner DS. I guess I can always return or sell the hub kit faster then a DS as well.

To confirm, yes taking the front DS out, vibes or sound or whatever happens past 65 is gone.

Now I do have an appointment at a non-jeep shop (which I'm quite positive they dont have a clue about DS angles when doing alignment) but I'm hoping to check my tire balance to make sure that didnt change. I don't see how it would, but hey its not a perfect world. Maybe they did, I just didnt drive 65 anywhere since the weight fell off and I did regear it after. Appointment is for alignment to make sure caster is right and such since the shimmy is going on and last time I had that, Tires and Alignment was done to get rid of it. Waste of $$, maybe, but I don't have a computer for alignment and driveway is on an slight angle and digital gauge, well sometimes I get 0.5 difference, sometimes I get 2.0 difference between DS angle and PS. Driving me crazy lol so. I also can't find what the proper proceedure is and specs for caster since caster would deal with the shimmy I think more then DS angle, then if I'm too much toe, I might have a shimmy as well as the tires are fighting themselves, correct?

Shimmy is tire balance issue.

 

[MikeE024]

Shimmy is tire balance issue.

Yes, definitely don’t over look tire balance.

 

[catbones2010]

Shimmy is tire balance issue.

But no shimmy before regear and shimmy after? Strange isn't it and that's before I started to play with angles and caster.

 

[starkey480]

But no shimmy before regear and shimmy after? Strange isn't it and that's before I started to play with angles and caster.

What’s the shimmy like?

 

[mrblaine]

I've got a local guy that does driveshafts for racing and states he can balance it up to 10k rpms vs like Adams or Tom only doing it to 3200-3300rpms. I'm just worried, I'll dish out the $$ and I'm still stuck because the angles are messed up and with a 2" lift only, vs those that had this issue at 4" or more... I just don't get it. Some say its the CV angle on the front driveshaft but 2" lift is nothing much really compare to 4".

Which is 100% anecdotal experiences are not of the value folks tend to believe. What I do to solve an issue may not and generally won't work. They are all different. You have a path, you just need to follow it.
Front shaft out, dial in the rear and don't stop until you are 100% happy with it.
Then install the front. Start adjusting pinion up and caster out until the vibes get acceptable or the steering goes to crap with fidgety response and loss of return to center. All predicated of course, on a known good front shaft.
At the point of crap steering due to loss of caster, you can then make the decision to live with no vibes and crap steering or go back to good steering and no vibes with the hub kit. That said, if the kit is the Yukon WU-07, be aware they are not always 100% out of the box and need lots of tweaking to install correctly.

 

[catbones2010]

Ahh ok I didn’t know u messed with things. Try to not create additional issues during the diagnosis phase or your head might spin off. I have to tell myself the same thing sometimes…think things through the best u can. That’s how you’ll improve.

I can’t comment on adjusting caster with stock arms because I’ve never done it. But if you adjusted them, then I bet u can dial it in with a Klein digital angle finder…they cost about $22 at Home Depot.

Yes, got one, actually got two, Digital and not so digital. Been looking at these numbers with no clue lol... well little bit of clue but just pretty confused since one side of the axle pumpkin at the rear flat spots will read .2 off and driver side caster will be way off from the passenger side, yet, the alignment shop did it and it was perfectly fine before the regear and all parts off to do so.

Shimmy is also less without the front DS but there.

Tires balance, sure but damn for conincidence lol... doing regear at the same time and no shimmy, all of the sudden done regear and shimmy. Than again, I don't think I jumped on the thruway for like a month so maaaaybe.