Boy you can tell when someone has a lot of real hands on experience .
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Long Arm Lifts vs. Short Arm Lifts
- Thread starter Stox5225
- Start date
I like your setup, what would it take to get a pattern to duplicate it? I am thinking of doing exactly the same thing using the synergy fixed arms on the lowers. I am building my own axles, what do you think of using these link towers: https://www.barnes4wd.com/Link-Tower_p_148.html for the top of the rear? How much up travel do you get with 4 inches of lift? Tim
Well I can probably dig up the drill template but I am pretty sure I do not have the instructions for it anymore. Going to have to do some digging. Those Barnes brackets are not at the correct angle to get the control arms to line up to the frame brackets.
Well I wasn't active when this was being discussed.
I have a Nth Degree longarm kit on my TJ and when I bought it they were the new kids on the block but were suppose to be it. I liked the idea of the clean under belly and the bent arms made sense to me for not dragging on rocks or other obstacles. At the time the only two longarm lifts that DIDN'T use radius arms in front was Full Traction and TeraFlex. Because of other items installed I was told not to use the Full Traction kit due to the Tri-Link rear. I liked the idea of the Full Traction kit on the front because it had a 4 link like stock. The TeraFlex lift was going thru changes at the time becasue their front design was not working.
I have custom axles front and rear. So to install the Nth Degree kit I had to use their universal bracket for a HP60. I don't know if that is what is causing my issues or if it is something else. If I could figure it out and be able to stretch my rear like I want I would keep the Nth Degree but because I don't think I can I am going to change out my complete suspension. I'm not going to try and debate what is better or worse.
I don't know of ANY longarm kits that do not require you to cut off the stock lower mounts and many the rear upper mounts. The only welding that was required was to weld the 8 bungs into the frame for the holes you needed to drill to bolt the control arm bracket to. Also in the rear you had to keep the trackbar because of only having the two lower arms and the stinger. You do not use upper control arms in the rear.
I can post up pictures for anyone interested. I also have the jig for the lower control arms since some of you were asking about it. Has anyone tried dealing with this new company who is now selling Nth Degree products?
https://www.nthdegreemobility.com/
I can try to explain my issues if anyone is interested. As someone on another forum said my Jeep is a time capsule to the past. It has been parked for 8 years for various issues and I lost contact with the Jeep world. So I am trying to relearn everything I knew.
Notice no lower control arms showing.
I have a Nth Degree longarm kit on my TJ and when I bought it they were the new kids on the block but were suppose to be it. I liked the idea of the clean under belly and the bent arms made sense to me for not dragging on rocks or other obstacles. At the time the only two longarm lifts that DIDN'T use radius arms in front was Full Traction and TeraFlex. Because of other items installed I was told not to use the Full Traction kit due to the Tri-Link rear. I liked the idea of the Full Traction kit on the front because it had a 4 link like stock. The TeraFlex lift was going thru changes at the time becasue their front design was not working.
I have custom axles front and rear. So to install the Nth Degree kit I had to use their universal bracket for a HP60. I don't know if that is what is causing my issues or if it is something else. If I could figure it out and be able to stretch my rear like I want I would keep the Nth Degree but because I don't think I can I am going to change out my complete suspension. I'm not going to try and debate what is better or worse.
I don't know of ANY longarm kits that do not require you to cut off the stock lower mounts and many the rear upper mounts. The only welding that was required was to weld the 8 bungs into the frame for the holes you needed to drill to bolt the control arm bracket to. Also in the rear you had to keep the trackbar because of only having the two lower arms and the stinger. You do not use upper control arms in the rear.
I can post up pictures for anyone interested. I also have the jig for the lower control arms since some of you were asking about it. Has anyone tried dealing with this new company who is now selling Nth Degree products?
https://www.nthdegreemobility.com/
I can try to explain my issues if anyone is interested. As someone on another forum said my Jeep is a time capsule to the past. It has been parked for 8 years for various issues and I lost contact with the Jeep world. So I am trying to relearn everything I knew.
Notice no lower control arms showing.
This is a post from over on Pirate that I think says a lot as to what works and what doesn't.
This thread was posted in another discussion about longarm lifts.
https://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/gen...4x4-world-has-anti-squat-wrong-long-pics.html
This thread was posted in another discussion about longarm lifts.
https://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/gen...4x4-world-has-anti-squat-wrong-long-pics.html
I think it would be better for everyone if you found the thread in Gen4x4 where someone was talking about a suspension guru from another world and getting his thoughts on what we need for our suspensions. IIRC, they finally drug him into the discussion and finally got someone to tell the truth about the calculators. Essentially they are good in static situations. Once you put the rig in motion and change the attitude of the chassis, they are fairly useless and that is compounded by the fact that very few actually know where their CoG really is. If you have played with one of the calculators, plug in all your numbers, then move the CoG a bit in different directions and watch what happens to the numbers. Garbage in, Garbage out.
So, if your only intent is to use the numbers between various rigs to just do comparisons and see what you might want to do, how do you know the numbers are accurate if you don't know how well they defined the actual CoG location? That really isn't a number that should be guesstimated, is it?
To put all that another way, take a step back and ponder the comments about the rig that worked very well climbing stuff that no one else made it up but had very crappy numbers. Think about that some. Did he have crappy numbers or did he have a crappy way of arriving at the numbers? If his numbers are accurate, then what is wrong with everyone else's numbers being used as a predictor of performance? If his numbers are inaccurate, then how does one make them accurate?
If anyone wants to find their true COG, I have scales up to 6000# that we can weigh then do a lift on one side or end and recalculate using the longacre calculator. Maybe I should bring them down to Moab for EGS.
The process is a bit more involved, requiring a ramp of a certain height. But even if you can accurately determine the COG, you have only determined it on flat ground in a static situation.
Blaine that thread from Pirate I thought said most of what you just said. The OP was trying to understand how anti-squat worked and a lot of the replies went against what many felt SHOULD work.
I'm in no way trying to say longarm is better than shortarm suspension. I am the first to say I don't think my Jeep performs properly. I don't know all the why's of it but I have the hop that people talk about and if I am on the brakes and gun my engine my Jeep will raise up. So from what I do understand these things say it isn't working properly.
I found this thread when I was trying to find some other information and wanted to post about what I knew about the Nth Degree longarm kit. I am not trying to stir the pot or cause any turmoil.
I'm in no way trying to say longarm is better than shortarm suspension. I am the first to say I don't think my Jeep performs properly. I don't know all the why's of it but I have the hop that people talk about and if I am on the brakes and gun my engine my Jeep will raise up. So from what I do understand these things say it isn't working properly.
I found this thread when I was trying to find some other information and wanted to post about what I knew about the Nth Degree longarm kit. I am not trying to stir the pot or cause any turmoil.
I agree with everything you are saying and from all the reading I have tried to do over on Pirate about the subject I think a lot of the time this is what it comes down to. If you don't have the proper numbers to enter in the first place then what you are going to get back out won't be worth a darn.
And as has been pointed out numerous times these calculators are all for static figures. Once the Jeep moves it throws the numbers all the heck. The way you have experimented with different setups and settings with testing in the real world I think is better than any spread sheet. But most of us don't have that ability to do this so how do we figure out what works and doesn't work?
The explanations in why off the shelf longarm kits don't work/help anything makes a lot of sense to me. I remember when Larry tried out the Currie J arms on his TJ. That was about the time I bought mine. Without your vast experiance how is the layman Jeeper going to know what to or how to install a suspension if a KIT isn't going to work any longer?
I really don't have that answer. Not only do I not have it, I don't know how to get it. At the end of the day, no matter what is said, or how many examples are given of how something works, there will always be a fair number of folks who won't (not don't, won't) believe it and who instead have to believe that what they have works better because in order to have that be different, they have to admit they may not have made the right choice.
One question maybe you can answer,
Does different terrain conditions and types of terrain have any affect in how a suspension works? Like was talked about in that thread from Pirate some speculated on if people on the east coast used higher AS over people in the southwest who used lower AS number? I know Johnson Valley is some of the hardest wheeling in the US but does other places affect how you need to setup your suspension? I'm not talking about a Mud Bog only rig or a Sand only rig. Just trying to better understand how all this has an affect on things.
Does different terrain conditions and types of terrain have any affect in how a suspension works? Like was talked about in that thread from Pirate some speculated on if people on the east coast used higher AS over people in the southwest who used lower AS number? I know Johnson Valley is some of the hardest wheeling in the US but does other places affect how you need to setup your suspension? I'm not talking about a Mud Bog only rig or a Sand only rig. Just trying to better understand how all this has an affect on things.
You are still basing the specifics on numbers, numbers we do not know are accurate and have no way to verify if they are. In other words, you still want to use numbers to point you in a specific direction and you have no way to know if the numbers are good. If you don't know if the numbers are good, how does that make them useful or put another way, how is it possible to even answer your question?
Does traction matter?
Does lifting the front on a climb matter?
Does wheel hop matter?
Does torque jacking matter?
If they do matter, how does the terrain make any difference? You still want as much traction as you can make the rig develop, you don't want the front to lift on a steep climb, you don't want wheel hop, and jacking the front left up and over is bad. Why would terrain affect that?
Explained that way no it doesn't matter. And you listed all the things WRONG with my setup right now.
I get so confused with all the stuff sometimes. I'm trying to not look at all those numbers becasue as you said are they accurate? And I'll be honest I have no idea where the COG is on my Jeep and it changes due to the air bags which complicates things even more. I guess I am going to have to do the trial and error process to try and get my Jeep to be as solid a platform as I can. I am thinking this is going to take a lot longer than I thought and hoped it was going to take.
I get so confused with all the stuff sometimes. I'm trying to not look at all those numbers becasue as you said are they accurate? And I'll be honest I have no idea where the COG is on my Jeep and it changes due to the air bags which complicates things even more. I guess I am going to have to do the trial and error process to try and get my Jeep to be as solid a platform as I can. I am thinking this is going to take a lot longer than I thought and hoped it was going to take.
Right or wrong I do like the smooth underbelly. And as you said in another thread, "it's all about packaging" Trying to put a one size fits all suspension onto a TJ just doesn't work. This was in reference to longarm kits.
That was or is part of the debate about longarms isn't it? That they hang up on things? And if I remember correctly it was part of Nth's sales pitch for using their kits. And I bought into it hook line and sinker. If I could make a suspension that worked properly and could keep everything tucked up under the rig I would. But you have pointed out many times that it isn't possible.
My statement "all about packaging" is not in reference to the arms hanging down or not hanging down. It refers to LA kits in general. In order to get the kit on the rig with long arms, they have to compromise where the upper arms attach to the rig in the back and the front secondarily. They are unable to get a tolerable amount of vertical separation between the front of the upper and lower rear arms where they attach to the skid. That severely affects the geometry. The kits in general are not optimized for geometry, they are optimized to package them in such a way that they will be able to be installed. Packaging refers to the configuration of the links and how they get installed to the belly skids.
The mere fact that they attach to the skid is the issue. Unless you want to hack up the cargo floor and get some vertical spread between the upper and lower links in the rear, the geometry will be compromised because as you move the lower up, the upper has to move with it. That is the packaging issue, not whether they do or don't hang down. You also can NOT point the intersection of the upper and lower links extended lines at the center of gravity if the lowers are pointed at the top of the dash.
You can bend any arm and get it up out of the way if you don't mind using a control arm joint that self centers or some sort of wobble stopper at the joints or ends of the links to keep them from flopping around.
The consequence of hanging up on things is just pointing out the absurdity of the package, nothing more.