They had a former TJ engineer behind them. For a bolt on kit, the long arms with the Stinger reportedly are quite good by comparison. It is elaborate and not always elegant, though.
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Long Arm Lifts vs. Short Arm Lifts
- Thread starter Stox5225
- Start date
I was thinking about this today while I was at the gym running.
A lot of us are always recommending this lift or that lift (for instance, Currie, Metalcloak, etc.). However, those short arm lifts don't address any of the geometry changes that occur when you lift your TJ 4" or so.
In reality, shouldn't we be recommending mid-arm lifts to anyone who is planning on off-roading their TJ? I say that because with the mid-arm lifts, it's going to actually bring the suspension geometry back to where it would have been if it were stock and not lifted at all, correct?
All of these off-the shelf lift kits do nothing (as far as I'm aware) to address the changes in geometry, anti-squat, etc. The only lifts that seem to do that are the Savvy mid-arm, and other weld on lift kits.
A lot of us are always recommending this lift or that lift (for instance, Currie, Metalcloak, etc.). However, those short arm lifts don't address any of the geometry changes that occur when you lift your TJ 4" or so.
In reality, shouldn't we be recommending mid-arm lifts to anyone who is planning on off-roading their TJ? I say that because with the mid-arm lifts, it's going to actually bring the suspension geometry back to where it would have been if it were stock and not lifted at all, correct?
All of these off-the shelf lift kits do nothing (as far as I'm aware) to address the changes in geometry, anti-squat, etc. The only lifts that seem to do that are the Savvy mid-arm, and other weld on lift kits.
You really mean for anyone who is planning 4" or more of lift, right? Even a stock TJ is capable off road — just maybe not for anything too extreme. And aren't 2-3" lifts still practical with short arms?
I'm mostly thinking about 4" lifts, yes. I say that because it's arguably the most common suspension lift height for our TJs. I rarely see people go over 4" of suspension lift unless they're building something very extreme.
Yes, they're practical, but the fact still remains that you've changed the geometry of things even if you only went up 2" of lift. While the effects may not be as pronounced as 4", technically you're still changing the geometry.
Of course the important thing to understand (and I totally get this), is that most people don't have the time or money to be installing mid-arm lifts. They want a lift that bolts on (which I get) and allows them to go have fun.
Chances are high that most people with a bolt-on lift wouldn't be to that point where they'd even need to worry about correcting the geometry, unless they're getting into some very technical trails and such.
IMO, up to 4" of lift, you really don't notice much change in geometry with short arms. Yes, a few things need to be adjusted, like track bars, but with midarm/long arm lifts, you are changing the lengths of the arms, and the attachment points to the frame for said arms. that is where length of separation of the arms and location of brackets becomes important for roll center and antisquat. You are changing so much stuff, that you have to try to regain the geometry so the dang thing can drive down the road like it used to. I think there is a compromise when choosing mid/long arm lifts.
For starters, we should continue to discourage the typical bolt on long arm kit. Hopefully most can understand by now that they are trading one set of problems for another, with little having been solved in the process. That's a lot of money and time spent on very little.
The next question is for the person to ask what problem they are seeking to solve with a change in arm length. How are the lifted short arms causing a problem? If that question can't be answered, then perhaps there is no benefit to be gained with mid arms. Again, that is a lot of money and time spent on adding benefits that may never be realized in the way those Jeeps are used. I will readily point a finger in my general direction on that front.
There are a lot of very capable Jeeps running short arms with 4" of lift that are able into get many places.
The next question is for the person to ask what problem they are seeking to solve with a change in arm length. How are the lifted short arms causing a problem? If that question can't be answered, then perhaps there is no benefit to be gained with mid arms. Again, that is a lot of money and time spent on adding benefits that may never be realized in the way those Jeeps are used. I will readily point a finger in my general direction on that front.
There are a lot of very capable Jeeps running short arms with 4" of lift that are able into get many places.
The only reason I'm looking on another arm system is because of the LCA frame bracket location. If you encounter a heavy rocky terrain, the same get's way much hits that quite worry me. Same with the LCA lower axle mounts.
It is couple of solutions to relocate the brackets but require extend the links.
But in general if I do found a solution for this or how to protect the brackets better, short arm will be until Tons comes to scene.
And I do agree, is totally senseless try to fix a problem that has never been identify.
Raising the LCA axle mounts opens up a whole new can of worms. Doing so puts more stress on the the uppers and raising that mount without also raising the upper will change the geometry. Leaving that mount where it is will be the lesser of many evils.
I've been hung up on the front lower frame side mounts before, and on a climb, so I could see the benefit of moving those up, but the axle side moves with the axle, so some mini skids and you'd have an acceptable compromise there by leaving them alone.
This is the kind of thread I have been looking for. I originally started wheeling on 4" lift and short arms, and I experienced a lot of anti-squat hopping. 4 years ago I installed 3" springs. That height change was noticeable to me. I'm assuming changed the geometry enough to where it handled noticeably better on obstacles, and did not want to "stand up" as much because I am assuming the antisquat number is lower.
It is still not perfect. I had been looking at a couple different mid-arm setups, but knowing that I have more than a $1,000 wrapped in short arms (Rokmen w/ Johnny Joints everywhere) I don't want to jump ship on those until after I have exhausted all options. I believe my next step will be looking at moving mounting locations of control arms.
Attached is a video of my most recent trip to Moab. The hopping I experience is generally more exaggerated, but on this trip a rain storm rolled through before hitting the trail and made everything more slippery. I want to be able to eliminate my wheel hop (anti-squat).
It is still not perfect. I had been looking at a couple different mid-arm setups, but knowing that I have more than a $1,000 wrapped in short arms (Rokmen w/ Johnny Joints everywhere) I don't want to jump ship on those until after I have exhausted all options. I believe my next step will be looking at moving mounting locations of control arms.
Attached is a video of my most recent trip to Moab. The hopping I experience is generally more exaggerated, but on this trip a rain storm rolled through before hitting the trail and made everything more slippery. I want to be able to eliminate my wheel hop (anti-squat).
Here's a great discussion on anti-squat which is not a subject I'm as well versed in as I would like...
https://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/gen...4x4-world-has-anti-squat-wrong-long-pics.html
https://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/gen...4x4-world-has-anti-squat-wrong-long-pics.html
I attempted to purchase one of these from Nth Degree earlier this week, and after following up since the order did not ship, I was contacted by eBob's Garage saying that Nth is out of business... again. Anyone have one of these jigs they are willing to part with (or know where I could get one) before I come up with my own plan?
There should be enough images of the drilled mounts that I think you could get pretty close on your own.
Brianj5600
TJ Expert
I think the only solution for rear TJ geometry, lifted 4"+ is moving the axle uca up. Once the upper control arm is higher on the chassis side, it is hard to correct...unless you want a lot of anti squat.
From the reading and wheelin that I have done so far, I think I want a some anti squat. I am basing this on the amount of climbing mixed with rocks around middle Tennessee. I'm not sure how much anti squat works best, but I will build it myself with more than one pick up point when possible.
I do know that my Jeep will bounce when pushed hard climbing combined with rocks or ledges. I would like to experiment with altered short arm geometry for now. This time next year start on longer arms and no track bar. In thw rear and ????? front.
From the reading and wheelin that I have done so far, I think I want a some anti squat. I am basing this on the amount of climbing mixed with rocks around middle Tennessee. I'm not sure how much anti squat works best, but I will build it myself with more than one pick up point when possible.
I do know that my Jeep will bounce when pushed hard climbing combined with rocks or ledges. I would like to experiment with altered short arm geometry for now. This time next year start on longer arms and no track bar. In thw rear and ????? front.
Just a newb question, what psi are you wheeling with? Would turning the steering wheel passenger or driver help out climbing ?
What the actual tire pressure is after being lowered for offroading depends on the tire, its size, the wheel width, and the type of terrain being wheeled on. You're not even aired down until you get below 15 psi and most commonly 11-12 psi is pretty standard for most wheeling needs. I typically take my 35's down to 8 psi for the rocky trails my TJ is mostly on.