Thank you for your kind words. It's definitely been a journey. I have a few more things to finish up and I'm hoping to be done by end of the year.
psrivats' 2005 TJ Rubicon mild build
- Thread starter psrivats
- Start date
Thank you for your kind words. It's definitely been a journey. I have a few more things to finish up and I'm hoping to be done by end of the year.
My local shop installed the Rubicrawler Everything works perfect. I'm yet to try the low-low.
One very interesting thing happened after the rubicrawler install. Now, without my front driveshaft, I really have no vibrations! @zebra12 had mentioned to me that there was one person who did not have vibes post rubicrawler install (without a hub kit).
I've been dealing with these demon vibrations ever since the thread re-gear. I have tried so much to fix it and nothing has fully worked so far. Prior to this install, I had vibrations with either driveshaft out which is why like @bobthetj03 I never considered a hub kit.
I don't know what changed, but now with the rubicrawler in place, the Jeep drives very very smoothly with just the rear driveshaft. I think this strengthens the model that it's indeed a harmonic vibration of some sort.
This is very good news since I can now put a locking (unlocking?) hub kit in the front and be done with it. The sucky part is that I'll have to spend more damn money. But I'll do it and be done with these hell vibrations for good.
One very interesting thing happened after the rubicrawler install. Now, without my front driveshaft, I really have no vibrations! @zebra12 had mentioned to me that there was one person who did not have vibes post rubicrawler install (without a hub kit).
I've been dealing with these demon vibrations ever since the thread re-gear. I have tried so much to fix it and nothing has fully worked so far. Prior to this install, I had vibrations with either driveshaft out which is why like @bobthetj03 I never considered a hub kit.
I don't know what changed, but now with the rubicrawler in place, the Jeep drives very very smoothly with just the rear driveshaft. I think this strengthens the model that it's indeed a harmonic vibration of some sort.
This is very good news since I can now put a locking (unlocking?) hub kit in the front and be done with it. The sucky part is that I'll have to spend more damn money. But I'll do it and be done with these hell vibrations for good.
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I had wondered if you ever fixed your vibes before sending it to Jeepwest for the Midarm investment. Glad to hear the rubicrawler helped!
I have a set of spare MOABs - 3 of the later MOAB style and 1 of the older style. Two observations that are interesting:
1. Both wheels have 5.5" backspace (and *not* 5" as you read online). This translates to +25.4mm offset.
MOAB wheels do have 5" bs. I measured wrong.
2. The older MOAB style is 25lb. The newer one is 21lb. This is quite apparent when you lift the wheels.
I wanted to get the exact offset and backspace measurements so that I know what aftermarket wheels would be the right choice for me since I am planning a hub kit install. I very likely have to live with some amount of tire poking out of the fender flares.
MOAB wheels do have 5" bs. I measured wrong.
2. The older MOAB style is 25lb. The newer one is 21lb. This is quite apparent when you lift the wheels.
I wanted to get the exact offset and backspace measurements so that I know what aftermarket wheels would be the right choice for me since I am planning a hub kit install. I very likely have to live with some amount of tire poking out of the fender flares.
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Couple good things happened today! More detailed post with better photos coming over the weekend.
I will say that for on-road, KO2s are much quieter than the Duratracs. The additional sidewall also helps.
I will say that for on-road, KO2s are much quieter than the Duratracs. The additional sidewall also helps.
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Thanks man. The effort it took on my rig was just ridiculous. It did finally come down to hubs, but to get to this point where hubs worked was a struggle bus. I hope we can help out @bobthetj03 resolve his too.
Damn I feel for all of you folks who have this vibration issue. That is just crazy and the amount of work you all have had to go thru is just crazy. But I'm sure it feels great now that the problem is solved.
Thanks ... only you truly understand the pain. I am writing you a PM with some thoughts and ideas. I really want you to become vibe free too.
No sun today, but here's a couple photos in daylight. I think the wheels look nearly stock in a CJ kind of way. It look some effort to get them looking that way, but I'm very happy. New shoes too, 33x10.5 KO2s.
That isn't entirely true. I've spent as many hours on another one.
I bet! I am simply glad it's over. Whatever combination of things that went on mine eventually changed the characteristics of that vibration enough such that the hub kit worked. I tried my best to understand it and I'm more certain than ever that it's structural/harmonic in nature. There is likely no way to predict a clear solution that will work every time.
Had a LJ that I helped on. Chased a vibe for months. Three different rear driveline including ditching the rubicon flange, reworked the front. Turned out to be the tcase itself and after a bearing kit and chain all is well.
Couple more photos and the promised write-up.
I chose to go with the 5x5.5 hub kit.
The wheels are steel wheels from Bassett Racing. I wanted a set in 5x5.5 pattern, 15x8 size and between 4.5" to 4.75" backspacing. It's surprisingly very hard, if not impossible, to find good looking alloy wheels in that combination. I explored OEM older Ford truck 5 lug wheels but the center bore size was too small in the wheels I was interested in and the 4" bs too much for me.
After some discussions, some math, some measurements, and comparisons using a online tire/wheel size visualizer, I realized that a 4.75" backspacing is going to work just fine for me. I unexplainably and illogically dislike the looks of tires poking out the flares even if it's just a little bit, so I was willing to err on 4.75" bs vs 4.5" bs.
After a lot of wheel searching, I eventually learnt about Bassett/Aero/Diamond racing wheels from one of the techs at my local shop (Maddie's Garage in Hillsboro) that did the install for me (and they did a a really good job). These companies mostly cater to the circle track racing market, so weight is a huge thing for them in general. They make lightweight steel wheels in the 15lb range for track use for smaller cars but not recommended for road use. They make even beadlocks that are ~20-25 lb!
i found out that Bassett does sell wheels made for road use. The ones I was interested in came in at 23lb, close to my OEM MOABs. You can see the options here.
http://www.bassettwheel.com/dot.html
http://www.bassettwheel.com/4x4_offroad.html
The wheels are all about the same quality from these places. They have multiple sizes, bolt circle patterns and offsets that they offer them in. They are very cheap, $60-$80 per wheel, and have a reputation for strength but there are some trade offs.
This is how they look when they come in. Cheap paint, ugly looking red stripe, the very visible weld bead and an ugly decal. Out of 5 wheels I ordered, 2 came in bent. The packing was pretty poor and it was a pain to get replacements shipped. But eventually got them, and they told me to just keep the other two.
Obviously I wasn't happy with the looks. I have an excellent local body shop that has helped in the past so I took it to them, initially to just get them repainted. They took a look and said "let's see if we can make these look nicer". They took one wheel, stripped the paint (which I am told came off really really easy), then filled the weld bead area and put primer. This was how it looked after that.
I thought the "test results" came out really nice.
In the meantime, out of curiosity, I had enquired about the cost of customized alloy wheels with the backspacing/size/bolt pattern I wanted. The numbers were absolutely shocking. I realized that was not for me.
So I decided to take the plunge and get all the steel wheels refinished. Even with 5 steel wheels, shipping, fill work + repaint, I am under the cost of 5 nice wheels from American Racing or Mambas or the quadratec moab replicas.
Yes, some of you may think it's stupid to spend this much on steel wheels, and you may be right in a logical sense. But I know that I wouldn't be happy with ugly looking wheels and I'll keep searching forever. So, for me, refinishing was the right choice.
For the paint on them, I chose a color that's close to typical OEM steel wheels - a metalic silver-ish color with a matte clearcoat. The body shop (Andrew's Autobody, if anyone is curious) got it perfectly right. You can see the end results on the Jeep in the picture below. I'm very happy with the results.
If you zoom in, you will notice that the you can't see the valve stems. That's because they are behind the "spokes". This is an unexpected added bonus. Airing them up/down is no more difficult than usual. The keen eyed will also notice that the lug nuts look funny. That's because these wheels need have a nut with 45 degree seat chamfer. I bought these from Bassett as well. The rear "short height" 4.25" dia center caps came from eBay ($18 for a set if 4 shipped!) and were painted to match the wheels.
One thing to note though, the wheels are trued in manufacturing off the bolt circle, so I had to go to a tire shop that had the right equipment and adapter plate to balance the wheel/tire assembly off the bolt circle and not the hubs. They balanced without issue.
The wheels have a nice CJ wagon wheel look to them. They are almost OEM like in many ways and do not attract any unwanted attention in both design and color, which is exactly what I had wanted.
The hub install itself was pretty straightforward. The studs that Yukon supplies are useless. I had talked to @mrblaine ahead of time and he very graciously explained what needed to be done to my shop guys directly, for both the front and the rear. Things were not complicated in the rear since I had aftermarket shafts that were dual drilled. They did have to shave less than 1/8" on the rear calipers since there was a bit of contact with the inside of the wheel.
I was worried about braking and axle gearing. The jury is still out, but after a bit of driving today, I will say that I am not pissed off with the 4.88s. The black magic pads stop the vehicle quite nicely they did the earlier 265/75/16s. The new wheel tire combo is 7lb heavier in each corner than before I do feel a bit if difference on the steering wheel while turning and some difference in the braking distance, but after a day of driving around I've already pretty much adapted.
The tires are an interesting comparison. I had c rated 265/75/16 Duratracs before. Nominal 32" tire, but measures a bit under 31" with ~28 psi. I now have C rated BFG KO2s in 33x10.5x15, and the loaded "height" is 31.5" with 30psi.
These match very closely to the numbers you get from manufacturer published revs/mile. 20168/660=30.6 for Duratracs and 20168/640=31.5" for KO2s.
I very well know this is not the right way to measure the diameter. But for comparison purposes it works well. I gained close to an inch in height. The ~3-4mph speedometer difference that I see also bears this out. Since I already have a speedo-healer this is easy to fix. The larger sidewall that I now have does make a clear difference in the ride and in a good way.
I went with KO2s because (1) I have them on my XJ and like them (2) I wanted a C-rated AT tire in this size and not many options really. I also really debated 15s vs 17s for wheels for more tire choices. I borrowed a set of 17/33s from the shop and I did not like how it looked on my Jeep with the lift height I have. All in all, I'm very happy with where the Jeep is right now.
With the fronts unlocked, it's just like driving without the front driveshaft. No harmonic vibration. With the hubs locked, it comes back. So, just like many many other folks know, I'm happy to have "cured" mine.
I'll be meeting Paul (shock retune) and Dave (to checkout a friend's rear geometry correction) next week. Will have them give the rig a look over to make sure all the clearances and shock bias is all still good. I think they will be, but always good to check.
Thank you Blaine for all the great help you offered and for very patiently answering my questions, some of which now I realize were stupid. Thank you @Mr. Bills for your answers to my PM questions and for your very useful threads on the Yukon 5x5.5 kit, both the discussion thread and the install thread. Thank you @Mike_H for all the advice and suggestions and support.
I chose to go with the 5x5.5 hub kit.
The wheels are steel wheels from Bassett Racing. I wanted a set in 5x5.5 pattern, 15x8 size and between 4.5" to 4.75" backspacing. It's surprisingly very hard, if not impossible, to find good looking alloy wheels in that combination. I explored OEM older Ford truck 5 lug wheels but the center bore size was too small in the wheels I was interested in and the 4" bs too much for me.
After some discussions, some math, some measurements, and comparisons using a online tire/wheel size visualizer, I realized that a 4.75" backspacing is going to work just fine for me. I unexplainably and illogically dislike the looks of tires poking out the flares even if it's just a little bit, so I was willing to err on 4.75" bs vs 4.5" bs.
After a lot of wheel searching, I eventually learnt about Bassett/Aero/Diamond racing wheels from one of the techs at my local shop (Maddie's Garage in Hillsboro) that did the install for me (and they did a a really good job). These companies mostly cater to the circle track racing market, so weight is a huge thing for them in general. They make lightweight steel wheels in the 15lb range for track use for smaller cars but not recommended for road use. They make even beadlocks that are ~20-25 lb!
i found out that Bassett does sell wheels made for road use. The ones I was interested in came in at 23lb, close to my OEM MOABs. You can see the options here.
http://www.bassettwheel.com/dot.html
http://www.bassettwheel.com/4x4_offroad.html
The wheels are all about the same quality from these places. They have multiple sizes, bolt circle patterns and offsets that they offer them in. They are very cheap, $60-$80 per wheel, and have a reputation for strength but there are some trade offs.
This is how they look when they come in. Cheap paint, ugly looking red stripe, the very visible weld bead and an ugly decal. Out of 5 wheels I ordered, 2 came in bent. The packing was pretty poor and it was a pain to get replacements shipped. But eventually got them, and they told me to just keep the other two.
Obviously I wasn't happy with the looks. I have an excellent local body shop that has helped in the past so I took it to them, initially to just get them repainted. They took a look and said "let's see if we can make these look nicer". They took one wheel, stripped the paint (which I am told came off really really easy), then filled the weld bead area and put primer. This was how it looked after that.
I thought the "test results" came out really nice.
In the meantime, out of curiosity, I had enquired about the cost of customized alloy wheels with the backspacing/size/bolt pattern I wanted. The numbers were absolutely shocking. I realized that was not for me.
So I decided to take the plunge and get all the steel wheels refinished. Even with 5 steel wheels, shipping, fill work + repaint, I am under the cost of 5 nice wheels from American Racing or Mambas or the quadratec moab replicas.
Yes, some of you may think it's stupid to spend this much on steel wheels, and you may be right in a logical sense. But I know that I wouldn't be happy with ugly looking wheels and I'll keep searching forever. So, for me, refinishing was the right choice.
For the paint on them, I chose a color that's close to typical OEM steel wheels - a metalic silver-ish color with a matte clearcoat. The body shop (Andrew's Autobody, if anyone is curious) got it perfectly right. You can see the end results on the Jeep in the picture below. I'm very happy with the results.
If you zoom in, you will notice that the you can't see the valve stems. That's because they are behind the "spokes". This is an unexpected added bonus. Airing them up/down is no more difficult than usual. The keen eyed will also notice that the lug nuts look funny. That's because these wheels need have a nut with 45 degree seat chamfer. I bought these from Bassett as well. The rear "short height" 4.25" dia center caps came from eBay ($18 for a set if 4 shipped!) and were painted to match the wheels.
One thing to note though, the wheels are trued in manufacturing off the bolt circle, so I had to go to a tire shop that had the right equipment and adapter plate to balance the wheel/tire assembly off the bolt circle and not the hubs. They balanced without issue.
The wheels have a nice CJ wagon wheel look to them. They are almost OEM like in many ways and do not attract any unwanted attention in both design and color, which is exactly what I had wanted.
The hub install itself was pretty straightforward. The studs that Yukon supplies are useless. I had talked to @mrblaine ahead of time and he very graciously explained what needed to be done to my shop guys directly, for both the front and the rear. Things were not complicated in the rear since I had aftermarket shafts that were dual drilled. They did have to shave less than 1/8" on the rear calipers since there was a bit of contact with the inside of the wheel.
I was worried about braking and axle gearing. The jury is still out, but after a bit of driving today, I will say that I am not pissed off with the 4.88s. The black magic pads stop the vehicle quite nicely they did the earlier 265/75/16s. The new wheel tire combo is 7lb heavier in each corner than before I do feel a bit if difference on the steering wheel while turning and some difference in the braking distance, but after a day of driving around I've already pretty much adapted.
The tires are an interesting comparison. I had c rated 265/75/16 Duratracs before. Nominal 32" tire, but measures a bit under 31" with ~28 psi. I now have C rated BFG KO2s in 33x10.5x15, and the loaded "height" is 31.5" with 30psi.
These match very closely to the numbers you get from manufacturer published revs/mile. 20168/660=30.6 for Duratracs and 20168/640=31.5" for KO2s.
I very well know this is not the right way to measure the diameter. But for comparison purposes it works well. I gained close to an inch in height. The ~3-4mph speedometer difference that I see also bears this out. Since I already have a speedo-healer this is easy to fix. The larger sidewall that I now have does make a clear difference in the ride and in a good way.
I went with KO2s because (1) I have them on my XJ and like them (2) I wanted a C-rated AT tire in this size and not many options really. I also really debated 15s vs 17s for wheels for more tire choices. I borrowed a set of 17/33s from the shop and I did not like how it looked on my Jeep with the lift height I have. All in all, I'm very happy with where the Jeep is right now.
With the fronts unlocked, it's just like driving without the front driveshaft. No harmonic vibration. With the hubs locked, it comes back. So, just like many many other folks know, I'm happy to have "cured" mine.
I'll be meeting Paul (shock retune) and Dave (to checkout a friend's rear geometry correction) next week. Will have them give the rig a look over to make sure all the clearances and shock bias is all still good. I think they will be, but always good to check.
Thank you Blaine for all the great help you offered and for very patiently answering my questions, some of which now I realize were stupid. Thank you @Mr. Bills for your answers to my PM questions and for your very useful threads on the Yukon 5x5.5 kit, both the discussion thread and the install thread. Thank you @Mike_H for all the advice and suggestions and support.
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