Re-gear advice

[deadbeat son]

thank you the videos really boosted my confidence more then what I had so I think I will give it a shot I've done everything else on my jeep by my self so I feel good about it. I also want this skill for later in life. I'm only 17 now and hoping to go into heavy equipment mechanic and welding and fab works so I'm sure this skill could come in handy some time later in life.

It's also good to know yourself. I know I don't have patience for little fiddly stuff. Although I'm sure I could accomplish the task, I assume it's not for me. As previously mentioned, regearing is pretty tedious with all of the detailed work and I simply don't have the perseverance or enough interest to pay that close of attention.

 

[Wtrask]

If your not changing the carrier on either axle it’s pretty simple. Just change the ring and pinion and check the pattern with some marking compound. You should be fine.

 

[Joe.B]

If your not changing the carrier on either axle it’s pretty simple. Just change the ring and pinion and check the pattern with some marking compound. You should be fine.

that's what I thought but i wasn't totally sure if it would transfer over the same

 

[Jerry Bransford]

If your not changing the carrier on either axle it’s pretty simple. Just change the ring and pinion and check the pattern with some marking compound. You should be fine.

New R&P gears need to be completely set up from scratch whether it's the existing carrier or a new carrier.

 

[AndyG]

They're not "scare statements", my warnings are made so people are aware that installing gears is not an easy bolt-in process. And again, not even expert gear installers get it right it right the first time 100% of the time.

Have I EVER said it's impossible to do with no experience? Absolutely not, but it's better to be forewarned than to not be aware of the risks involved. If you would rather the very real risks not be mentioned and discussed that's not something I'll go along with.

I think I’m a good voice for Jerry’s viewpoint- because I’m pretty handy and had experienced help and was way in over my head when I unsuccessfully attempted mine. Plus I like his hat.

I believe in the value of being positive- but if the conversation involves swimming a wide river, sticking your hand in a gators’ mouth or a costly gearing job- you need to think about what happens if things go wrong.

First, if you are regearing yourself because the budget is tight, how are you going to feel about reordering every thing and paying a shop to fix it?

Do I think it is beyond the capability of mere mortals? No. But I do think you need to either know exactly what you are doing or have assistance from someone who does.

It is the kind of job you need to know what you are looking for - right or wrong, and it is not a bolt on project, but the precise setting of helical gears. I think it would be great to assist someone a few times if you could first.

I’m reminded of a saying I once read-

“ We all laughed at dad when he loaded up the tackle and said he was going to catch the big one, but we weren’t laughing that evening when he came home drunk with some prostitutes he picked up in town.”

 

[Claybirdd]

Getting ready myself to replace the carrier in my Dana 30. My understanding is that I shouldn't have to mess with the pinion at all. Should just have to set pre-load and backlash on the ring gear. Is this not correct?

 

[SvtLdr]

Getting ready myself to replace the carrier in my Dana 30. My understanding is that I shouldn't have to mess with the pinion at all. Should just have to set pre-load and backlash on the ring gear. Is this not correct?

In a perfect world, yes, you should be able to leave the pinion gear alone. To be safe though, I'd measure your backlash and run a gear pattern before I tore anything apart. That way you have a comparison when you put your new carrier together.

 

[Jerry Bransford]

Getting ready myself to replace the carrier in my Dana 30. My understanding is that I shouldn't have to mess with the pinion at all. Should just have to set pre-load and backlash on the ring gear. Is this not correct?

That's pretty much the case, the pinion doesn't need to be touched.

 

[AndyG]

That's pretty much the case, the pinion doesn't need to be touched.

But you can look at it, just close one eye.

 

[hosejockey61]

If your not changing the carrier on either axle it’s pretty simple. Just change the ring and pinion and check the pattern with some marking compound. You should be fine.

Just the opposite.

 

[pc1p]

I'll further echo the "DIY" approach, noting that it 1) isn't for everyone and certainly not for those who get frustrated at minor changes 2) takes more time than you think and 3) requires some initial investment in some tools you won't likely have.

If you have the patience, time and money to invest in the tools (and space to store them!), I say go for it. My first "mentor" for gear swaps was my dad's buddy who helped me with my first set of Dana 60/70's back in the day. He was half-blitzed on Bud Light and a few swigs of blackberry brandy, but never (to my knowledge) had anyone come back to him over the years that I knew him for a broken R&P. Years later, we set up my 9" for my '66 and I beat the piss out of that thing with a stroker SBF and 5-speed conversion.

If you have someone nearby that you trust and can mentor you, there is a lot of value there. There are plenty of "trade tricks" that you won't find in books or field manuals (but may find on YouTube!). It's also nice to have someone explain what the gear pattern shows when you finally check with marking compound. There are plenty of guides about reading a pattern, but someone pointing and explaining goes much further to increase understanding than a reference photo.

 

[pc1p]

Getting ready myself to replace the carrier in my Dana 30. My understanding is that I shouldn't have to mess with the pinion at all. Should just have to set pre-load and backlash on the ring gear. Is this not correct?

Assuming your pinion bearings are in good shape, you should not need to touch the pinion when you replace the carrier.

You will need to adjust backlash first with the case at zero-preload (meaning the carrier, bearings and combined shim stacks allow for 0.00" of lateral movement within the "cradle" of the axle housing). Then, once you're happy with the BL and pattern (trying to match your old BL and pattern as well as you can), you will want to add the Dana-specified carrier preload (0.015" total, or 0.0075" per side). This may be hard to do without a case spreader but plenty of folks have beaten carriers in place with a mini sledge and wood block.

A note on pattern - it's worthwhile to check pattern before removing the old carrier but don't get too caught up on it. On used gears, the pattern will not likely match any pattern guide or look anything close to what new gears would look like. Since you're not touching the pinion, pinion-depth should remain the same and thus, getting acceptable BL is generally the focus here. Regarding BL, you may choose to tighten up BL on your new setup. There are a few schools of thought here but the one I usually follow is that if the old carrier setup had acceptable BL, I try to match that as close as reasonably possible. If BL was out of spec due to damaged bearings or damaged carrier, I shoot for the upper end of the spec range and focus on pattern a bit more (noting that you'll likely have to go off of the coast-side to for a better visual).

 

[Claybirdd]

Assuming your pinion bearings are in good shape, you should not need to touch the pinion when you replace the carrier.

You will need to adjust backlash first with the case at zero-preload (meaning the carrier, bearings and combined shim stacks allow for 0.00" of lateral movement within the "cradle" of the axle housing). Then, once you're happy with the BL and pattern (trying to match your old BL and pattern as well as you can), you will want to add the Dana-specified carrier preload (0.015" total, or 0.0075" per side). This may be hard to do without a case spreader but plenty of folks have beaten carriers in place with a mini sledge and wood block.

A note on pattern - it's worthwhile to check pattern before removing the old carrier but don't get too caught up on it. On used gears, the pattern will not likely match any pattern guide or look anything close to what new gears would look like. Since you're not touching the pinion, pinion-depth should remain the same and thus, getting acceptable BL is generally the focus here. Regarding BL, you may choose to tighten up BL on your new setup. There are a few schools of thought here but the one I usually follow is that if the old carrier setup had acceptable BL, I try to match that as close as reasonably possible. If BL was out of spec due to damaged bearings or damaged carrier, I shoot for the upper end of the spec range and focus on pattern a bit more (noting that you'll likely have to go off of the coast-side to for a better visual).I

Assuming your pinion bearings are in good shape, you should not need to touch the pinion when you replace the carrier.

You will need to adjust backlash first with the case at zero-preload (meaning the carrier, bearings and combined shim stacks allow for 0.00" of lateral movement within the "cradle" of the axle housing). Then, once you're happy with the BL and pattern (trying to match your old BL and pattern as well as you can), you will want to add the Dana-specified carrier preload (0.015" total, or 0.0075" per side). This may be hard to do without a case spreader but plenty of folks have beaten carriers in place with a mini sledge and wood block.

A note on pattern - it's worthwhile to check pattern before removing the old carrier but don't get too caught up on it. On used gears, the pattern will not likely match any pattern guide or look anything close to what new gears would look like. Since you're not touching the pinion, pinion-depth should remain the same and thus, getting acceptable BL is generally the focus here. Regarding BL, you may choose to tighten up BL on your new setup. There are a few schools of thought here but the one I usually follow is that if the old carrier setup had acceptable BL, I try to match that as close as reasonably possible. If BL was out of spec due to damaged bearings or damaged carrier, I shoot for the upper end of the spec range and focus on pattern a bit more (noting that you'll likely have to go off of the coast-side to for a better visual).

I greatly appreciate you input and I will take precautions. However my issue is when I installed my Aussie locker my backlash went through the roof. Haven't put an indicator on it yet but we are talking several hundred thousandths. (I'm a machinist so i have a pretty good eyeball)

This caused my locker to disengage when I turn the wheels in 4wd. Makes a God awful popping and banging. Anyways tgis is why I am completely replacing my carrier, cross pin, and washers everything but the ring gear.

To get to the point. Should I still document the pattern I currently have and use it as a baseline with all that is going on?

Edit. Locker is property set up and right in the middle of tolerances

 

[SvtLdr]

I greatly appreciate you input and I will take precautions. However my issue is when I installed my Aussie locker my backlash went through the roof. Haven't put an indicator on it yet but we are talking several hundred thousandths. (I'm a machinist so i have a pretty good eyeball)

This caused my locker to disengage when I turn the wheels in 4wd. Makes a God awful popping and banging. Anyways tgis is why I am completely replacing my carrier, cross pin, and washers everything but the ring gear.

To get to the point. Should I still document the pattern I currently have and use it as a baseline with all that is going on?

Edit. Locker is property set up and right in the middle of tolerances

Can you elaborate further on what you mean by "went thru the roof"? Backlash changing by "several hundred thousandths" seems impossible - unless you somehow lost all of your carrier shims.

If your current set up is foobared somehow then it doesn't make any sense to document it before removing.

 

[Claybirdd]

Can you elaborate further on what you mean by "went thru the roof"? Backlash changing by "several hundred thousandths" seems impossible - unless you somehow lost all of your carrier shims.

If your current set up is foobared somehow then it doesn't make any sense to document it before removing.

I think the hole for the cross pin is worn out which is creating the slop. Hence replacing the carrier. When I open it up next weekend I will post a video of how much play there is rotating the carrier.

I just have gone through everything trying to get this locker working and replacing the carrier is a last resort. Also planning on regearing to 5.13 next year so I look at this as a good learning experience.

 

[SvtLdr]

I think the hole for the cross pin is worn out which is creating the slop. Hence replacing the carrier. When I open it up next weekend I will post a video of how much play there is rotating the carrier.

I just have gone through everything trying to get this locker working and replacing the carrier is a last resort. Also planning on regearing to 5.13 next year so I look at this as a good learning experience.

Ok, that makes more sense if something is broken internally.

I have a buddy who's particularly rough on equipment. He had a similar issue with "thru the roof backlash" that seemed to show up suddenly and we weren't sure where it was coming from. We ended up replacing the carrier also as a last resort. After removing the old carrier, I took it into work with me and did some magnetic particle testing on it to see if I could find any cracks that weren't visible with the naked eye. I was a little surprised when this showed up.

 

[pc1p]

Like @SvtLdr said, unless shims are lost your backlash should stay the same when removing and installing a carrier. It seems like you're confusing carrier/locker slop with true backlash (common problem since the "slop" in the spider gears or locker can easily "mask" the R&P spacing). To properly check BL, you'll move the carrier/ring gear against a stationary pinion gear and use a dial indicator to check (as a machinist, I'm sure this isn't news to you!). Using the "hand check" method, especially with a locker, is quite prone to confusion and needless worry.

One thing worth noting is that lockers only "lock" with torque input. If yours is unlocking, could it be because your backing off the throttle? This is an old trick to get a rig to "turn in" a bit tighter (quickly getting off the throttle to "unlock", then turning the wheels, then getting back into the throttle once the rig points where you want it).

 

[Claybirdd]

Like @SvtLdr said, unless shims are lost your backlash should stay the same when removing and installing a carrier. It seems like you're confusing carrier/locker slop with true backlash (common problem since the "slop" in the spider gears or locker can easily "mask" the R&P spacing). To properly check BL, you'll move the carrier/ring gear against a stationary pinion gear and use a dial indicator to check (as a machinist, I'm sure this isn't news to you!). Using the "hand check" method, especially with a locker, is quite prone to confusion and needless worry.

One thing worth noting is that lockers only "lock" with torque input. If yours is unlocking, could it be because your backing off the throttle? This is an old trick to get a rig to "turn in" a bit tighter (quickly getting off the throttle to "unlock", then turning the wheels, then getting back into the throttle once the rig points where you want it).

Interesting points you make. I could be uneven with the throttle and not realizing it. Tomorrow @AndyG And I are putting my cable shifter in and I'll test it and let you know.

 

[Claybirdd]

Ok, that makes more sense if something is broken internally.

I have a buddy who's particularly rough on equipment. He had a similar issue with "thru the roof backlash" that seemed to show up suddenly and we weren't sure where it was coming from. We ended up replacing the carrier also as a last resort. After removing the old carrier, I took it into work with me and did some magnetic particle testing on it to see if I could find any cracks that weren't visible with the naked eye. I was a little surprised when this showed up.View attachment 271976View attachment 271977View attachment 271978

Wouldn't surprise me if mine was the same way. We use ID red to crack check parts at my work so I will see if it reveals anything.

 

[Mudflat]

thank you the videos really boosted my confidence more then what I had so I think I will give it a shot I've done everything else on my jeep by my self so I feel good about it. I also want this skill for later in life. I'm only 17 now and hoping to go into heavy equipment mechanic and welding and fab works so I'm sure this skill could come in handy some time later in life.

Good for you!