What Difference Do Shocks Make?
- Thread starter jjvw
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I recently swapped out my front bilstein 5100 for a pair of tuned Fox 2.0 shocks,( Rears will be installed in a couple weeks). The difference in ride is night and day. I originally purchased the Bilsteins because they were a popular recommendation, had a relatively long stroke for the extended length, and allowed for a balanced 50/50 travel for my setup.
Perhaps if you have an exceptionally heavy Jeep they may feel ok, but I notice that the are overly harsh and have a "crust" that you need to break through to have any meaningful suspension. Absolutely terrible on washboards or the typical small trail chatter such as roots, stream bank gravel, or any small amplitude movements. And the shocks damping seem to be worse with each consecutive hit.
About the only remotely positive things I can say about the ride quality of the Bilsteins is that due to that firm damping they did good job with body roll and they did resist bottoming well.
The foxs are valved for my Jeep and how I use it. Gone is the harness and jarring. There is a little more body roll and I occasionally bottom, (driver error!), but I am now using the more of the available travel versus the Bilstein. Not a fair comparison of two equal products, because they aren't. Just a commentary on the benefit of customizing a shock for your specific application and use versus a one size fits all approach.
Perhaps if you have an exceptionally heavy Jeep they may feel ok, but I notice that the are overly harsh and have a "crust" that you need to break through to have any meaningful suspension. Absolutely terrible on washboards or the typical small trail chatter such as roots, stream bank gravel, or any small amplitude movements. And the shocks damping seem to be worse with each consecutive hit.
About the only remotely positive things I can say about the ride quality of the Bilsteins is that due to that firm damping they did good job with body roll and they did resist bottoming well.
The foxs are valved for my Jeep and how I use it. Gone is the harness and jarring. There is a little more body roll and I occasionally bottom, (driver error!), but I am now using the more of the available travel versus the Bilstein. Not a fair comparison of two equal products, because they aren't. Just a commentary on the benefit of customizing a shock for your specific application and use versus a one size fits all approach.
OP
The other set of Foxes are installed. To the best of my knowledge, these are whatever off the shelf valving Fox uses when you buy directly from them.
These are very different from the All Tech TJ tune my other set is said to have. The small events are far more noticable. The overall ride is more jittery. But at the same time, the movement is much less controlled. Lots of body roll. Lots of rise and fall during take off and braking. The Fox tune is almost the opposite of the All Tech tune. I don't like it.
The AllTech tune has a flutter valve. Meaning that there is a short section of light damping before the main valving takes over. The experience while driving is that the small events are less prominent, while allowing for a firmer, well controlled ride during the larger events. I can feel this soft section which transitions into firmer control.
If I were to compare to the Rancho 5000x I have up front, the Ranchos are slightly better than the Fox tune. The 5000x has fewer jitters with slightly more control during the larger events. I've said it before, the 5000x is just an OK shock, but pretty good for the cost.
When comparing the 5000x to the AllTech tune, the main valving is much more controlled even on the softest setting where the jitters are slight. Cranked up to 8 creates very good control with more pronounced jitters especially on slower city streets. So there is a compromise, but I'll take that over the Fox tune any day. This AllTech tune is very good and I appreciate it even more after today. There is a level of sophistication with this tune that the Fox and Rancho tunes don't have.
Hopefully that makes sense. I find this to be really fascinating.
These are very different from the All Tech TJ tune my other set is said to have. The small events are far more noticable. The overall ride is more jittery. But at the same time, the movement is much less controlled. Lots of body roll. Lots of rise and fall during take off and braking. The Fox tune is almost the opposite of the All Tech tune. I don't like it.
The AllTech tune has a flutter valve. Meaning that there is a short section of light damping before the main valving takes over. The experience while driving is that the small events are less prominent, while allowing for a firmer, well controlled ride during the larger events. I can feel this soft section which transitions into firmer control.
If I were to compare to the Rancho 5000x I have up front, the Ranchos are slightly better than the Fox tune. The 5000x has fewer jitters with slightly more control during the larger events. I've said it before, the 5000x is just an OK shock, but pretty good for the cost.
When comparing the 5000x to the AllTech tune, the main valving is much more controlled even on the softest setting where the jitters are slight. Cranked up to 8 creates very good control with more pronounced jitters especially on slower city streets. So there is a compromise, but I'll take that over the Fox tune any day. This AllTech tune is very good and I appreciate it even more after today. There is a level of sophistication with this tune that the Fox and Rancho tunes don't have.
Hopefully that makes sense. I find this to be really fascinating.
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Did you talk to all tech for a tune based on your corner weight or did you get their standard TJ tune?
Good thread.
I drove my first LJ home from my buddies shop with no rear shocks because we'd broken the upper rear shock bolts installing a lift. But I've never run anything more than a $50 shock and I've never run different new shocks back to back so I've never had an apples to apples comparison.
I drove my first LJ home from my buddies shop with no rear shocks because we'd broken the upper rear shock bolts installing a lift. But I've never run anything more than a $50 shock and I've never run different new shocks back to back so I've never had an apples to apples comparison.
OP
I bought them used. Based on what I was told by the seller, they are standard tune from AllTech. And based on the little bit I know about valve stacks, I believe this might be the medium tune.
Regardless, whatever they are, they are very different than the Fox tune.
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Haha, I really am not trying to get your goat, honestly. While doing research, some say LJ springs for the TJ instead of the normal TJ springs. Why is the recommendation for LJ vs. TJ version? Is there that much of a difference?
As far as shocks, I now completely get why you don't like Bilstein. You build light rigs and they are not conducive to that. That is the best shock I have had, and have not compared them to a tuned shock. It was all I knew at the time based on suggestions of others... similar to the Rancho 5000x now. I can only imagine getting shocks tuned for my setup, which won't be soon enough.
OP
The Lj spring is about 1” longer, so higher ride height compared to the same weight tj on tj springs.
Exactly my point. So springs are engineered for a specific weight at a specified height. Nothing more, nothing less.Why not stick a block of wood in there? Cut a pair of 4x4s down to 16" and 12".
Shocks are not however to a certain degree. They are designed with masses in mind in order to maximize profit. You can capture a lot more customers with an advertised 0"-4" length shock than you can for a specific length shock. Reduces manufacturing cost I would guess as well.
Most everyday Joe's are simply trying to get the best bang for their buck. The sky is the limit I suppose.
IDK enough to put a dog in this fight but i can say, i could jump on the rear bumper of my rig and not be able to get more than about 1/2" maybe 3/4" of downward movement in my suspension on those MC springs. even with the shocks disco'd. i'm 185#ish.
OP
Mine is an odd one. The Currie 4" LJ coils first went in when I had all that weight in the back. Plus, when I moved the spring seats, I raised the uppers and flattened the lowers. The result was that wanted the LJ coil and I still needed a spacer to get the desired ride height.
After the big weight loss, I now have less of a spacer to get the ride height.
For yours, we should swap in my springs and see what they do to yours. Then you can decide if you want The LJ or TJ rears.
I still have a bit of weight loss to go before I commit.... Is there a gastric bypass band for a TJ? (that isn't expensive
)
OP
I still have a bit of weight loss to go before I commit.... Is there a gastric bypass band for a TJ? (that isn't expensive
Drain all the fluids to recover another 30lbs.
From what I gathered reading about them, the adjusters in general control the shock's speed of compression (by changing the flow of oil through the internal damper's shim and piston assemblies). The "speed" in LSC/DSC does not mean vehicle speed but rather the speed of the suspension movement.
The high speed ones control hard/fast/sudden hits (like hitting a big root at speed on a FS road, or landing after a jump). The low speed adjusters are more geared towards controlling typical road unevenness and smaller/relatively more gradual events. Please correct if I'm wrong in my understanding
The tuning goal is a find a proper setting that gives good body control (roll in corners, dive under braking, squat under acceleration) without causing excessive harshness or loss of traction.
Not why do they work, why are you surprised that shocks have that much effect? The only reason that would be a surprise is if you bought into the "springs matter" bullshit.
So basically after years and years of research, a focus panel, asking my mom, and my own butt-meter. I have come to the conclusion that tire pressure and shocks are the only things that affect ride comfort over road imperfections. Let me know if I'm off base.
I wonder how the AllTech moderate tune compares to @pcoplin moderate tune. I'll go with Paul for my shocks but I'd like to hear any noticeable differences if you've driven one.
I had bilstiens which were jittery on the small bumps. Washboards would put me sideways. Installed 12" RR in the rear and while they absorb the small stuff well, I am finding them still too stiff. Since installing them though I've lost probably 125lbs off the rear and now I am back to the small jittery stuff again similar to what I had with bilstiens. I need to get these retuned. The fronts are 11" ranchos. They absorb much more than the bilstiens did, though they don't rebound quick enough for me.