What gear oil should I use in my diff?

Their argument makes no sense. They are saying 75W-140 synthetic is an insulator and 85W-140 conventional is a conductor of heat and most likely both are made from conventional base stock with syn being hydrocracked to make the molecules more uniform.

And Jeep requires 75-140 syn for towing and in TJ Rubi diffs.

The only convincing argument I've seen for conventional is for use in cone clutch LSDs and some of the helical gear LSD manufacturers base their torque bias on the less slippery conventional.

I would however run whatever the manufacturer recommended to maintain the warranty, as I have never had an axle failure with either conventional or synthetic in any brand of axle.
 
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Run whatever you want. I stupidly ran a synthetic gear lube when I knew better during the break-in of new 5.38 gears and they got so hot despite my very careful break in process they started howling. The gear guru I went to took one look at the gears and instantly accused me of running a synthetic during the break in. He was right. I felt so stupid but I had been talked into synthetic over my better judgment by someone I trusted.

Talk with John Currie as I did about why they started requiring their axle customers to run a conventional gear lube or face warranty cancellation. Same with why Revolution Gear recommends a conventional gear lube.
 
Their argument makes no sense. They are saying 75W-140 synthetic is an insulator and 85W-140 conventional is a conductor of heat and most likely both are made from conventional base stock with syn being hydrocracked to make the molecules more uniform.

And Jeep requires 75-140 syn for towing and in TJ Rubi diffs.

The only convincing argument I've seen for conventional is for use in cone clutch LSDs and some of the helical gear LSD manufacturers base their torque bias on the less slippery conventional.

I would however run whatever the manufacturer recommended to maintain the warranty, as I have never had an axle failure with either conventional or synthetic in any brand of axle.

Yeah I don’t buy it either but you have to maintain the warranty. They obviously claim it but I don’t believe it.
 
I’m wondering about that as well. Synthetic is “slipperier” and lubricates better, which is why it’s not recommended for engine breakin as there’s not enough friction to seat the piston rings. With less friction there would be less heat generated. So during gear breakin it would be similar to the piston rings not seating, but after that I’m not following why it would be detrimental. There must be a piece of information that I am not aware odf.
 
The only convincing argument I've seen for conventional is for use in cone clutch LSDs and some of the helical gear LSD manufacturers base their torque bias on the less slippery conventional.

I have a Crosstrek and an AWD Highlander. I thought it was interesting that both of those OEMs used non-synthetic diff fluid in them.
 
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I’m wondering about that as well. Synthetic is “slipperier” and lubricates better, which is why it’s not recommended for engine breakin as there’s not enough friction to seat the piston rings. With less friction there would be less heat generated. So during gear breakin it would be similar to the piston rings not seating, but after that I’m not following why it would be detrimental. There must be a piece of information that I am not aware odf.
That's what most people think and so did even John Currie years ago but he and the rest of the aftermarket axle/gear industry no longer think that way about synthetic gear lubes.

Aftermarket axle and R&P gear providers started seeing an upturn in problems. For one good example, Currie builds axles and installs whatever ratio aftermarket gears the customer wants. They had a normal warranty repair rate until they started seeing a climb in warranty problems. It became alarming enough that they started examining all of their processes and parts to see what was causing the upswing in R&P gear failures. All of this is right from John Currie, I personally heard him explaining what they saw and what other aftermarket axle and gear manufacturers started seeing.

They found nothing in their processes or in their supply chain to account for the rise in R&P problems. They noted the failed R&P gears they were receiving back showed signs of being overheated. Looking into the overheated gears their customers assured them they had been carefully broken in with short trips, cool downs, etc. Currie was stymied. Then they figured out from talking with the customers with the failures that the only commonality between them was those with failures had broken the gears in with synthetic gear lubes. That confused everyone since like everyone else they didn't believe the synthetic gear lubes could be the cause.

They used IR heat guns to measure the diff covers and the temperatures were lower at the diff cover when the lubricant inside was a synthetic vs. higher diff cover temperatures with a conventional gear lube. That totally shocked them, how could the covers be cooler with a synthetic gear lube yet the gears lubricated with synthetics showed clear signs that they failed from excessive heat during the break-in process. John made a big point that they and the aftermarket industry members they consulted among were blown away by what they were seeing. It was clear the gears were failing from heat at a higher frequency when lubed with a synthetic but the diff covers were cooler showing the conventional gear lube was cooler. They were totally confused at this point.

Currie then resorted to building a special test jig/axle so they could directly measure the temperature of the gears themselves, not the gear lube just behind the diff cover. That's when they discovered the shocking news that even though the synthetic gear lube itself was cooler, the gears themselves were much hotter! Switching to a conventional gear lube, they noted the gears ran much cooler in the test jig with the conventional gear lube. They determined, and this again is right from John Currie's mouth, that the synthetic gear lubes were not sinking/extracting the heat from the gears as well as the conventional gear lubes did... which is why the conventional gear lube and the diff covers were hotter.

John then said once they changed their warranty to require the use of conventional gear lubes that their gear failure rates dropped back down to what they considered normal. Dynatrac had the same results. It was about this time when aftermarket gear manufacturers like Revolution Gear and Yukon started recommending the use of conventional gear lubes during the critical break-in process. For one example Revolution says "Recommended gear oil is an 80W-90 or 85W-140, Non-Synthetic, GL5 grade or Higher" at https://www.revolutiongear.com/ring_and_pinion_break_procedure

And again, I let myself get talked into using a synthetic during the break-in of my new 5.38 gears even though I had already bought the conventional gear lube. And toward the end of my VERY careful break-in the rear axle's gears started howling. The gear "guru" guy I took my TJ to have the new replacement gears installed removed the old gears and immediately accused me of "stupidly" having used a synthetic gear lube, he said the gears showed signs of significant overheating during the break-in process despite my anal/careful break-in with lots of cool downs. He pumped in conventional gear lube afterward and I went home and changed my front axle back to a conventional gear lube and that's all I have ever run since.

Why can our factory axles run fine with synthetics with the gears the factory installed? Because the Spicer gears the factory installs come thoroughly pre-lapped and don't require a break-in. All aftermarket gears require a break-in in so while some will instantly say they had no problem breaking their new aftermarket gears in with a synthetic, I'll just say good for you and that you obviously were very lucky.

Sorry for the long comment on this but my experience with my burned-up RGA gears with a synthetic gear lube matches what I heard John Currie saying years ago together. That plus aftermarket gear manufacturers recommending conventional gear lubes and my personal experiences taught me to stick with conventional gear lubes for my aftermarket gears. Hate me all you want for what I wrote above but I really don't care. Run what you want. If what I wrote here saves one set of new aftermarket gears for someone here it'll make my day.
 
Everything I’ve read recommends against using synthetic during break in for anything - engine or differential. That was based on the inability for parts to wear in properly (friction is needed for that). But once well broken in it should be OK to use synthetic, right?
 
Everything I’ve read recommends against using synthetic during break in for anything - engine or differential. That was based on the inability for parts to wear in properly (friction is needed for that). But once well broken in it should be OK to use synthetic, right?
Yes but the gears will still run hotter which is why I run a conventional. I personally see no reason for me to run a synthetic gear lube.
 
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Everything I’ve read recommends against using synthetic during break in for anything - engine or differential. That was based on the inability for parts to wear in properly (friction is needed for that). But once well broken in it should be OK to use synthetic, right?

I would follow whatever the gear manufacturer recommends for warranty purposes.

But yeah, I've had full synthetic in a YJ with Dana 30 and 35 for about 250K mi after changing over from conventional at about 50K mi. So, 300K on the axles.

The Rubi TJ came with 75W-140 syn in the rear, and I assume 80W90 conventional in the front, Dana 44s. At the first gear oil change I put 75W-140 syn in both and it's now at 265K mi.

No axle issues ever except for a pinion seal on the 35 at around 230K.
 
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One more question, when should I open the diff cover, clean and RTV seal it back up VS. just do a fluid change?
the Jeep is 23 years old and has 112K.

Unless you have a Dana 44 you have to open it up. Either way, I would open it up, you can inspect your gears and give it a good cleaning. RTV to seal it back up and you are good to go until your next deep water crossing or about 25,000 miles. Whatever comes first.
 
That's what most people think and so did even John Currie years ago but he and the rest of the aftermarket axle/gear industry no longer think that way about synthetic gear lubes.

Aftermarket axle and R&P gear providers started seeing an upturn in problems. For one good example, Currie builds axles and installs whatever ratio aftermarket gears the customer wants. They had a normal warranty repair rate until they started seeing a climb in warranty problems. It became alarming enough that they started examining all of their processes and parts to see what was causing the upswing in R&P gear failures. All of this is right from John Currie, I personally heard him explaining what they saw and what other aftermarket axle and gear manufacturers started seeing.

They found nothing in their processes or in their supply chain to account for the rise in R&P problems. They noted the failed R&P gears they were receiving back showed signs of being overheated. Looking into the overheated gears their customers assured them they had been carefully broken in with short trips, cool downs, etc. Currie was stymied. Then they figured out from talking with the customers with the failures that the only commonality between them was those with failures had broken the gears in with synthetic gear lubes. That confused everyone since like everyone else they didn't believe the synthetic gear lubes could be the cause.

They used IR heat guns to measure the diff covers and the temperatures were lower at the diff cover when the lubricant inside was a synthetic vs. higher diff cover temperatures with a conventional gear lube. That totally shocked them, how could the covers be cooler with a synthetic gear lube yet the gears lubricated with synthetics showed clear signs that they failed from excessive heat during the break-in process. John made a big point that they and the aftermarket industry members they consulted among were blown away by what they were seeing. It was clear the gears were failing from heat at a higher frequency when lubed with a synthetic but the diff covers were cooler showing the conventional gear lube was cooler. They were totally confused at this point.

Currie then resorted to building a special test jig/axle so they could directly measure the temperature of the gears themselves, not the gear lube just behind the diff cover. That's when they discovered the shocking news that even though the synthetic gear lube itself was cooler, the gears themselves were much hotter! Switching to a conventional gear lube, they noted the gears ran much cooler in the test jig with the conventional gear lube. They determined, and this again is right from John Currie's mouth, that the synthetic gear lubes were not sinking/extracting the heat from the gears as well as the conventional gear lubes did... which is why the conventional gear lube and the diff covers were hotter.

John then said once they changed their warranty to require the use of conventional gear lubes that their gear failure rates dropped back down to what they considered normal. Dynatrac had the same results. It was about this time when aftermarket gear manufacturers like Revolution Gear and Yukon started recommending the use of conventional gear lubes during the critical break-in process. For one example Revolution says "Recommended gear oil is an 80W-90 or 85W-140, Non-Synthetic, GL5 grade or Higher" at https://www.revolutiongear.com/ring_and_pinion_break_procedure

And again, I let myself get talked into using a synthetic during the break-in of my new 5.38 gears even though I had already bought the conventional gear lube. And toward the end of my VERY careful break-in the rear axle's gears started howling. The gear "guru" guy I took my TJ to have the new replacement gears installed removed the old gears and immediately accused me of "stupidly" having used a synthetic gear lube, he said the gears showed signs of significant overheating during the break-in process despite my anal/careful break-in with lots of cool downs. He pumped in conventional gear lube afterward and I went home and changed my front axle back to a conventional gear lube and that's all I have ever run since.

Why can our factory axles run fine with synthetics with the gears the factory installed? Because the Spicer gears the factory installs come thoroughly pre-lapped and don't require a break-in. All aftermarket gears require a break-in in so while some will instantly say they had no problem breaking their new aftermarket gears in with a synthetic, I'll just say good for you and that you obviously were very lucky.

Sorry for the long comment on this but my experience with my burned-up RGA gears with a synthetic gear lube matches what I heard John Currie saying years ago together. That plus aftermarket gear manufacturers recommending conventional gear lubes and my personal experiences taught me to stick with conventional gear lubes for my aftermarket gears. Hate me all you want for what I wrote above but I really don't care. Run what you want. If what I wrote here saves one set of new aftermarket gears for someone here it'll make my day.

@Jerry Bransford - Revolution says during breaking procedure, to "stop and let differential cool before proceeding". How should we test to ensure the diff is cool enough? How long should we let it cool or to what temperature?
 
@Jerry Bransford - Revolution says during breaking procedure, to "stop and let differential cool before proceeding". How should we test to ensure the diff is cool enough? How long should we let it cool or to what temperature?
Good question for RGA but my stops during break-in after regearing have been 30-45 minutes.
 
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Their argument makes no sense. They are saying 75W-140 synthetic is an insulator and 85W-140 conventional is a conductor of heat and most likely both are made from conventional base stock with syn being hydrocracked to make the molecules more uniform.

And Jeep requires 75-140 syn for towing and in TJ Rubi diffs.

The only convincing argument I've seen for conventional is for use in cone clutch LSDs and some of the helical gear LSD manufacturers base their torque bias on the less slippery conventional.

I would however run whatever the manufacturer recommended to maintain the warranty, as I have never had an axle failure with either conventional or synthetic in any brand of axle.
The bottom line is for factory installed gears both synthetic and conventional gear lubes are fine. Factory gears are pre-lapped/broken in/matched together by the gear manufacturer so there's no break-in process required of a new owner for a brand-new vehicle. A synthetic gear lube for the factory installed gears is fine.

For AFTERMARKET gears, which need to be broken in by the vehicle owner, aftermarket manufacturers like Currie, Dynatrac, and Revolution Gear all recommend a conventional gear lube. Currie and Dynatrac require a conventional gear lube, they'll void the warranty if they discover a synthetic gear lube was used by the customer. They do that because it was been found that new aftermarket gears run significantly cooler during the break-in process when lubricated with a conventional gear lube.

Revolution Gear & Axle didn't say the following for no reason at https://www.revolutiongear.com/ring_and_pinion_break_procedure
"The recommended gear oil is an 80W-90 or 85W-140, non-synthetic, GL5 grade or higher from a name brand."
 
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Good question for RGA but my stops during break-in after regearing have been 30-45 minutes.

I took your advice and contacted them. The response was "If you can rest your hand on it then it’s cooled enough". Very scientific ;)

I'll take a laser thermometer with me so I only have to crawl under it once. My starting point will be your recommended 30 min.

Update: Here's an interesting addendum. I'll let it cool to about 100.

From NASA

"Defrin et al. [7] investigated heat pain threshold across the body and found the lowest level in the chest (42°C or 107.6°F), the highest in the foot (44.5°C or 112.1°F) and the hand was 43.8°C (110.8°F)."
 
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